Clinch Over Under Position

SidRon

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Would some of the wrestlers on here provide some specific details on how to gain leverage and advantage in the over under position. I am familiar with the basic position and pummeling drills etc. I was hoping for some extra details on optimal placement of hands, shoulders, legs, etc.. to make the most of the position. Some off balancing techniques would be great as well. Currently I off balance by pulling circularly with the underhook or the overhook.

Thanks
 
for gi? no gi? mma? wrestling? tbh all are different

in submission grappling i dont like over under very much i prefer to get a single underhook

but i found an amazing greco thread here someone made few months back ill post for you tons and tons of clinches here for you

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/greco-roman-instructional-videos.3590805/
Mainly MMA upright posture no gi. I get in that position all the time when I spar so I want to get better at it. I will check out the thread. Thanks
 
I don't mean this as any offense, but entire styles of wrestling have been created to address this very issue. It is the equivalent of asking, "once the fight goes to the ground, can you give me some tips or details on how to get an advantage?" Your best bet is to pursue Greco-Roman wrestling, Sumo, or if in the Gi, Sambo, if you are a huge fan of this position.

With that said, knowing that it is an artform in and unto itself, I'll give you a few tips that will hopefully help.

So, I'm going to assume you start from an over under position, though I don't really believe this is natural. Generally, you're only going to have one side engaged in an over/under, with the other hand free to post on the ground for a scissor, scoop an ankle for an ankle pick, snap down to a front headlock, or what have you. To use an analogy, it's why some Filipino Martial Artists actually prefer having one hand empty while stick/knife fighting; the utility factor of the empty, free hand cannot be overstated. However, this may be part of a drill, or you may be wrestling under a particular ruleset, that requires you to go to the over/under position. Or you end up there organically during the match.

First, the purpose of pummeling is to get double unders. Double unders is a game ender. It means you should win, and if you don't take the other person down, it's not because they are good, but because you screwed up. The #1 super easy best over under finish? The suplex. It creates fear in the heart of men, looks cool, and is incredibly functional. Some people will substitute the double under suplex with the tried-and-true BJJ squat-down-on-one-leg-and-trip-them-over-your-outstretched-leg, but this is an inferior version of the technique, because your opponent can twist in such a fashion to land on top of you, negating your takedown and extreme advantage you had. A baby suplex is to simply squat your butt to the ground first, and do an extremely low altitude suplex. No injuries, and you land on top! Hurray! Alternatively, if you are dead set on not being cool and suplexing, you can drop down to a single.

Now, you know you should be rushing for double unders as soon as you can, but your opponent knows that too! So, many times, you end up in interstitial positions where you need to tip the balance in your favor so you can take the other person down. The two important factors here are head angle, and wrist control.

Why?

Head angle, which is defined as having your forehead on the side of your opponents face (or if you prefer another example, if you're both cyclops from x-men, you want to be zapping him without being zapped in return), is an incredible advantage to have. It pushes at the far end of the lever that is your opponents body, keeps them higher than you, and can allow you to force someone down with headbutt power alone. If you can't get double unders, the next best thing is head control and an underhook. With this you can ankle pick (easy, low amplitude) or belly to belly suplex (cool, high amplitude).

Next is wrist control. Rather than doing a full on over/under, I'll retract the overhooking arm to get a grip on my opponent's wrist. Your opponent, unless you are totally and completely outclassed, cannot take you down with one hand. They are structurally weak, and you can exploit the controlled hand to neutralize their takedown attempts. So wrist control gives you safety; you know as long as his wrist is held, you are safe. If his wrist is loose, go on high alert! Having an underhook, head control, and wrist control means you are doing pretty damn good, and should be able to take the guy down.

But let's say you're missing one of these three components (underhook, head control, or wrist control). What do you do?

Not having the underhook, but having head control and wrist control, is still a good position to be in. But how, you may ask yourself, can you have head control with an overhook? Aren't they under you, what with the underhook and all? First, make sure you have a real overhook. This means pressuring HARD into the shoulder, as if you were trying to lay all of your bodyweight forward through their shoulder. This is incredibly uncomfortable, and gives you control over their joint, as opposed to the reverse. Now, they're going to be pressuring hard into you with their underhook, to try and take control of your shoulder joint, and such the game is played. If you have an overhook, but you also have head and wrist control, you can still takedown (ankle pick, for instance). In fact, some people prefer this position (generally people with bad shoulders).

What happens if you lose 2 out of 3? So, for instance, your opponent has the underhook and head positioning, but you have wrist control? First, hang on to that wrist, because you're one more mistake away from being suplexed. The best way to reset the position, to give you another bite at the apple, is kind of a fake uchimata; you kick back and up, hard, such that your opponent (and yourself) are headed straight towards the ground. Their head is thrown forward through gravity. This gives you the opportunity to regain head position (and if you do, now all their weight is on one leg, making the ankle pick extremely easy; you essentially just drive forward and finish at that point). If you have head control, but they have your wrist and the underhook, you can try and use your far knee (not the knee near them) to strip the grip and re-enter the handfight.

Finally, let's say you've really screwed the pooch. Your opponent has double unders on you. You don't want to be suplexed, right? No one does, because it's humiliating; it's something you do to other people, not something that is done to you! Immediately put your hands on the floor, do a forward roll, grab for one of their legs, and try to enter some kind of guard. There is a series of leg attacks you could do, such as viktor rolls, a roll into x-guard, or even playing an inverted guard into DLR, but you need your hands on the mat asap, to start turning over, and looking for a leg to hold on to, to keep you landborne instead of airborne.

This is a mini-game plan or roadmap you can follow to make sense of the clinch, but if you're looking specifically for greco-roman takedowns, you're into the fundamentals of any takedown art; off balancing your opponent, making one leg light and the other leg heavy, and getting your hips below your opponent. Just playing around with these concepts, you'll accidentally take other low level people down, and get an idea of what things are supposed to feel like.

For now, even if you're getting smashed, record it all. See what your opponent is doing to off balance you. See how they throw you. If it's part of an overall grappling spar, then use the methods I mentioned above, and look for the hierarchy of grips. If it's part of a drill, just try to learn as best you can. Move people around, feel how they move, and try to create attacks or throws based on that feeling (i.e., if someone is bending forward at the waist, they've already adopted the position of being hip thrown, so throw them! Or, likewise, if they're bending back, they've done half the work of being backheel tripped, so trip them!).

tl;dr:
"How do standup clinch?" isn't an easy question to answer.
 
DatCutman, thanks for the comprehensive response regarding clinch game planning. I am a BJJ purple belt and I realize that wrestling is an entire art form that can not be reduced to a single position. I actively work many of the positions that you mentioned in your post. For each position there are certain details that help give you advantage in that position. For example in side control I often look to block the near side hip, flatten my opponent on his back, kill the near side arm, under hook the far side arm, and apply shoulder pressure. These are some details that help with a specific side control position. What I was asking for was details specifically to help with the over under position. For example, what is the best position for your underhooking and overhooking arms, what is the best position for your lead shoulder and head, what is the best position for your feet, all within the confines of the over under position specifically. I realize the different positions you can transfer to and take downs you can do but books can be written on that so I was just asking for details on the over under specifically. Thanks
 
to me over under is the main clinch for mma getting a single underhook working for wrist control or headcontrol is hard because not everyone wants to engage with a wrestling match especially if they know your a jiu jitsu guy or wrestler they are gonna push off and get space.

ina wrestling match they are trying to wrestle with you mma isnt always the case so over under with an s grip is mandatory i feel when you get to over under so they cant just bail out on you
 
DatCutman, thanks for the comprehensive response regarding clinch game planning. I am a BJJ purple belt and I realize that wrestling is an entire art form that can not be reduced to a single position. I actively work many of the positions that you mentioned in your post. For each position there are certain details that help give you advantage in that position. For example in side control I often look to block the near side hip, flatten my opponent on his back, kill the near side arm, under hook the far side arm, and apply shoulder pressure. These are some details that help with a specific side control position. What I was asking for was details specifically to help with the over under position. For example, what is the best position for your underhooking and overhooking arms, what is the best position for your lead shoulder and head, what is the best position for your feet, all within the confines of the over under position specifically. I realize the different positions you can transfer to and take downs you can do but books can be written on that so I was just asking for details on the over under specifically. Thanks

Sorry, misunderstood your initial post then, now I just look like a douche!

With that said, because one day I'd like to expand my game plan beyond "get out of over/unders as soon as possible", my wish list of DVD's includes this over/under video.

http://www.championshipproductions....Position-Getting-to-Your-Throw_WRD-02062.html

Unfortunately my wife has instituted a strict "No more buying until you've watched all the others," policy on my instructional DVD's, so if you end up buying it before me, let me know if it's any good!
 
The basic keys to winning the over under position is to kill their underhook, and get your underhooking shoulder under their collarbone. If you can do those things, you are very hard to score on, and have a mechanical advantage when it comes to your offense.
 
Sorry, misunderstood your initial post then, now I just look like a douche!

With that said, because one day I'd like to expand my game plan beyond "get out of over/unders as soon as possible", my wish list of DVD's includes this over/under video.

http://www.championshipproductions....Position-Getting-to-Your-Throw_WRD-02062.html

Unfortunately my wife has instituted a strict "No more buying until you've watched all the others," policy on my instructional DVD's, so if you end up buying it before me, let me know if it's any good!
No problem, your longer post actually had a lot of great pointers.
 
Here is what I have gathered thus far from watching videos and experimenting for the past week. Feel free t make any comments and or corrections.
- Like Holt said the position of the shoulder of your underhooking arm is pivotal. If your shoulder is below the level of his then you are able to both jack him up onto your underhook and more easily drop your level down to attack legs while at the same time greatly limit his ability to do those things to you.
-The general consensus seems to be to lead with the leg of your underhooking arm. This appears to allow you to leverage your underhook more and have your leg near their underhook in a safer position.
-The underhooking arm is held high and parallel to the ground as opposed to a more vertical underhook you might do when your head is on the same side.
-The overhooking arm either grips the tricep or c-cups the bicep basically controlling their elbow.
-Lift the underhook side and weigh down the overhook side.
-Your head should be more on the side of the shoulder of the arm you are overhooking than next to their head.
-Circular off balancing motions either way are safer and more effective than driving into your opponent.
In sparring the most important detail seemed to be getting your lead shoulder lower than your opponents. Once I started doing that things really opened up.
 
Just watched some over/under stuff from John Trenge. He actually prefers to have the overhook side leg forward in the stance.
 
Just watched some over/under stuff from John Trenge. He actually prefers to have the overhook side leg forward in the stance.
doe she say why? iv always used udnerhook leg forward
 
Tekkenfan, Trenge said he likes to keep the overhook leg forward because he likes to have his head on the side of his forward leg so that he can see when his opponent tries to attack it and react better. Interesting because other wrestlers say they like their forward leg with the underhook so they can jack opponents up and keep them away from their lead leg. I have noticed that I am developing a strong preference for having my left leg forward no matter what side my overhook/underhook is on. As a result of this unsymmetrical approach I am doing different attacks depending on wether my forward left leg is with the underhook or overhook. That’s why I was kind of relieved seeing high level wrestlers do it both ways.
 

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