China sends carrier through Taiwan Strait

[original doom]

Taiwan is incapable of defending itself without the US. The moment we leave the theater, Taiwan is back in Chinese hands.

back to the motherland it is.

 

[Orgasmo]

Millions of Taiwanese people disagree with you, and having lived in Taiwan and mainland China, I also disagree with you.

Because of US intervention, Taiwan developed into a prosperous society. Its standard of living is significantly higher than that of mainland China. Its natural resources are in far better shape than the mainland. Perhaps ironically, it has preserved key elements of Chinese culture better than China itself. Furthermore, Taiwan has a thriving democracy. When I walk down the street here in Taiwan I see political ads for candidates at all levels of government. Political participation is very important for people here, young and old. Contrast with mainland China, where no one really talks about domestic politics except to complain about corruption.

Without US intervention, none of this would have been possible. The island would have fallen almost immediately, and Taiwan would have experienced the horror of Mao's China.

So you do agree that it was American intervention that artificially created the situation today, without which Taiwan would be unable to stand on its own. Funny thing about Taiwan, its greatest period of growth in terms of economy and living standards was under an authoritarian leader. Its democracy is a relatively recent phenomenon, and growth became sluggish since then. In recent years, its economy is increasingly dependent on trade with China. There is no realistic scenario, both militarily and economically, in which Taiwan could escape China's orbit. Taiwan was simply a relic of America's Cold War interventionism, which is no longer sustainable.

Most Canadians have British heritage. I guess the UK should invade and recapture Canada.

Recapture? The Queen of Britain is still our official head of state the last time I checked, and we're still part of the Commonwealth. What world are you living in?

 

[waiguoren]

oh come on thats not a fair comparison. taiwan is chinese, exists right off china, no shared history with america, no cultural or racial ties.

so yeh go and protect their freedom.

It's a good comparison.

Canadians speak English and look English. Canada was founded in part by the English and was part of Britain for almost 200 years.

Taiwanese people speak Chinese and look Chinese. Taiwan was founded in part by the Chinese and was part of China for about 200 years.

Perhaps the UK should consider reconquering Canada. In your language, return to the motherland! Public opinion be damned.

 

[Orgasmo]

It's a good comparison.

Canadians speak English and look English. Canada was founded in part by the English and was part of Britain for almost 200 years.

Taiwanese people speak Chinese and look Chinese. Taiwan was founded in part by the Chinese and was part of China for about 200 years.

Perhaps the UK should consider reconquering Canada. In your language, return to the motherland! Public opinion be damned.

We are part of the British Commonwealth, and our head of state is Queen Elizabeth II. Prior to Constitutions Act in 1982, any amendment to Canadian Constitution had to go through British Parliament in Westminster. Even today, new laws have to receive royal assent by the Governor General, who is the Queen's representative in Canada. New citizens, members of parliament and Canadian troops all have to take an oath of fealty to the Queen. Try to read a book on history and geography before you post retarded shit.

So no, there is no equivalency unless Taiwan somehow shares the same head of state and federation as China.

 

[waiguoren]

So you do agree that it was American intervention that artificially created the situation today, without which Taiwan would be unable to stand on its own. Funny thing about Taiwan, its greatest period of growth in terms of economy and living standards was under an authoritarian leader. Its democracy is a relatively recent phenomenon, and growth became sluggish since then. In recent years, its economy is increasingly dependent on trade with China. There is no realistic scenario, both militarily and economically, in which Taiwan could escape China's orbit. Taiwan was simply a relic of America's Cold War interventionism, which is no longer sustainable.

The factual parts of your statements are all true. The opinion portions are questionable. For the time being, defending Taiwan is quite sustainable for the most powerful military in the world. China's military technology is a generation behind ours. Taiwan buys older military equipment from us every few years for self-defense, and China always complains because they know it makes forceful unification much harder.

Recapture? The Queen of Britain is still our official head of state the last time I checked, and we're still part of the Commonwealth. What world are you living in?

Canada is an independent nation. The fact that the Queen has a meaningless title is irrelevant to this conversation. Britain has had no actual political authority since 1982.

 

[original doom]

It's a good comparison.

Canadians speak English and look English. Canada was founded in part by the English and was part of Britain for almost 200 years.

Taiwanese people speak Chinese and look Chinese. Taiwan was founded in part by the Chinese and was part of China for about 200 years.

Perhaps the UK should consider reconquering Canada. In your language, return to the motherland! Public opinion be damned.

difference is one is across an ocean while one is an island off the shores of china.

dont be sillly here. america does not have the taiwanese people in mind here anyway.

 

[waiguoren]

We are part of the British Commonwealth, and our head of state is Queen Elizabeth II. Prior to Constitutions Act in 1982, any amendment to Canadian Constitution had to go through British Parliament in Westminster. Even today, new laws have to receive royal assent by the Governor General, who is the Queen's representative in Canada. New citizens, members of parliament and Canadian troops all have to take an oath of fealty to the Queen. Try to read a book on history and geography before you post retarded shit.

So no, there is no equivalency unless Taiwan somehow shares the same head of state and federation as China.

Your focus on a meaningless ceremonial title is bizarre. The British Queen has no political authority over Canada. The meaning of my "recapture Canada" statement was clear as day. We are talking about actual political authority. If China were to recapture Taiwan, China would at a minimum take over Taiwan's military. That's part of the 一國兩制 concept.

 

[waiguoren]

difference is one is across an ocean while one is an island off the shores of china.

dont be sillly here. america does not have the taiwanese people in mind here anyway.

So what is your standard for unification, exactly? So far you've cited common ethnicity, shared language, geographical proximity. All of the above? So if North Korea were to capture South Korea you'd be fine with it?

 

[Orgasmo]

The factual parts of your statements are all true. The opinion portions are questionable. For the time being, defending Taiwan is quite sustainable for the most powerful military in the world. China's military technology is a generation behind ours. Taiwan buys older military equipment from us every few years for self-defense, and China always complains because they know it makes forceful unification much harder.

Quite sustainable? It would have been sustainable against China prior to 2000's. Now, it's simply foolish. China already has the world's largest industrial and research output and second largest economy (largest by PPP). Their military modernization far outpaces every single neighbor they have. There is no hope militarily for Taiwan as it is right at China's door steps. The balance is tilting towards China the longer this goes on. Time is not on the side of US or Taiwan.

Canada is an independent nation. The fact that the Queen has a meaningless title is irrelevant to this conversation. Britain has had no actual political authority since 1982.

As long as you admit that your notion that Britain should recapture Canada was beyond retarded. Britain relinquished most of its former colonies because management of these territories were untenable. Canada never left the Commonwealth in the first place. Taiwan and China do not share the same head of state or belong in a federation.

 

[Orgasmo]

Your focus on a meaningless ceremonial title is bizarre. The British Queen has no political authority over Canada. The meaning of my "recapture Canada" statement was clear as day. We are talking about actual political authority. If China were to recapture Taiwan, China would at a minimum take over Taiwan's military. That's part of the 一國兩制 concept.

Britain willingly gave Canada its political independence, while Canada remained in the British Commonwealth to this day. There was no civil war or outside intervention for this process to happen. I don't remember China ever relinquishing its claim on Taiwan. Hell even Taiwan itself is officially Republic of China. Your inability to understand the vast differences between two sets of circumstances is astonishing.

Try again and try harder.

 

[waiguoren]

Quite sustainable? It would have been sustainable against China prior to 2000's. Now, it's simply foolish. China already has the world's largest industrial and research output and second largest economy (largest by PPP). Their military modernization far outpaces every single neighbor they have. There is no hope militarily for Taiwan as it is right at China's door steps. The balance is tilting towards China the longer this goes on. Time is not on the side of US or Taiwan.

Research output is completely irrelevant to your point. They could publish a million papers a year on cell biology and that would say nothing of their ability to capture Taiwan. Also, China is the world leader in fraud of all kinds including research fraud. If you peruse the science anti-fraud blogosphere, you will find that Chinese papers constitute the vast majority of the relevant papers.

Their industrial output is also mostly irrelevant. It doesn't matter how much steel or aluminum they can produce. They need to have a sea/air force that can overwhelm that of the US and its allies. At this point they are very far from that level. As a proxy: they have a single carrier to our 20. We have two more under construction and 15 more planned.

A few months ago I might have agreed with you regarding the balance tilting toward China. But it looks like our Congress is going to continue to fuel the military industrial complex for years to come. China cannot match our current pace.

As long as you admit that your notion that Britain should recapture Canada was beyond retarded. Britain relinquished most of its former colonies because management of these territories were untenable. Canada never left the Commonwealth in the first place. Taiwan and China do not share the same head of state or belong in a federation.

I can't believe you're missing the point so thoroughly. The guy was arguing China has a right to capture Taiwan. It was an analogy. The UK no longer has political authority over Canada and hasn't for about 35 years. Beijing has had no political authority over Taiwan for 122 years. The other guy was arguing that China has a right to Taiwan because of shared language, history and genetics. Well, then the UK should have a right to Canada. If the other guy wants to bring up geographical proximity, then I guess the US should have Canada. Shared culture, language, genetics, proximity. All the boxes on the checklist are checked. To people like him, whoever has the biggest gun is king. I'm proud the US has used its big guns to protect Taiwanese self-rule. I hope it continues long into the future.

 

[HIMBOB]

Right but are they even focused on the military portion right now? Why wouldn’t they continue to beat us economically knowing they can turn their focus to the military whenever they want?

Question is if we know they’ll surpass us in the future then should we do something about it now?

Bit of sabre rattling should grt America's defence spending up and the bigger the beast the more it eats.

 

[Orgasmo]

Research output is completely irrelevant to your point. They could publish a million papers a year on cell biology and that would say nothing of their ability to capture Taiwan. Also, China is the world leader in fraud of all kinds including research fraud. If you peruse the science anti-fraud blogosphere, you will find that Chinese papers constitute the vast majority of the relevant papers.

Their industrial output is also mostly irrelevant. It doesn't matter how much steel or aluminum they can produce. They need to have a sea/air force that can overwhelm that of the US and its allies. At this point they are very far from that level. As a proxy: they have a single carrier to our 20. We have two more under construction and 15 more planned.

A few months ago I might have agreed with you regarding the balance tilting toward China. But it looks like our Congress is going to continue to fuel the military industrial complex for years to come. China cannot match our current pace.

Bullshit, research output is the single greatest factor in measuring the scientific progress of a nation. If you simply look at STEM fields, China already surpassed US a few years ago and I even made a thread on this. China also exceeded US in super-computing, both quantitatively and qualitatively since late last year. The existence of academic dishonesty does not negate the fact that China is growing at a rate that is outpacing US. If you think industrial output is simply steel and aluminum smelting, then you're a greater fool than I thought you were. Chinese advancement in electrical grid upgrade, transportation, aerospace, robotics, cloud computing, nuclear energy and shipbuilding are well documented. They do not need the same number of carriers to match US near Taiwan, since they have dozens of airfields within range that can act in the same function. You're talking about fighting right next to China's coast, where USN would be in range of ballistic missiles and long range bombers.

If you need to keep fueling the military industrial complex, which is a bottomless pit, just to keep Taiwan from slipping, then it is the definitely of unsustainable. You actually think US can keep up the current defence spending for long? A country that need external powers to keep surviving cannot last.

I can't believe you're missing the point so thoroughly. The guy was arguing China has a right to capture Taiwan. It was an analogy. The UK no longer has political authority over Canada and hasn't for about 35 years. Beijing has had no political authority over Taiwan for 122 years. The other guy was arguing that China has a right to Taiwan because of shared language, history and genetics. Well, then the UK should have a right to Canada. If the other guy wants to bring up geographical proximity, then I guess the US should have Canada. Shared culture, language, genetics, proximity. All the boxes on the checklist are checked. To people like him, whoever has the biggest gun is king. I'm proud has used its big guns to protect Taiwanese self-rule. I hope it continues long into the future.

You're just thick aren't you? The UK DID have a right to Canada, which they gave it away willingly through British North America Act in 1867 then Constitutions Act in 1982. Even to this day, Canadians swear oath of loyalty to the Queen. Do people in Taiwan accept Xi Jinping as head of state? Does Taiwan belong in a union with China? If not, your analogy is simply a bad one in which you kept insisting on. US would have been a lot better example, since it gained its independence through rebellion and intervention of France. One more thing, Taiwan is officially Republic of China, and its constitution claims a more expansive area than Communist China, including mainland Mongolia. Taiwan had plans to take back mainland China before Chiang Ching-kuo's death. Neither side has officially relinquished claim to each other.

And yes, whoever has the biggest gun is the king. US taught the world that in the last couple of decades by example. By the way, US did attempt to invade Canada only to fail miserably in 1812, resulting in the White House being burnt down. Like I said, try again and try harder.

 

[Fraz]

it's only a matter of time before China invades and occupies the USA, Mahjong will become Americas favourite pastime.

 

[TemujinKhan]

Oh yeah the Chinese are so smart that they did not invest in building super cariers and instead super sonic missiles the US,Pentagon so dumb build build carriers that will vet wreck and they dont know it.

Tottaly believable

Never said that, they spent on the things they needed to spend on, before they were an economic superpower.

The US has decommissioned 10 aircraft carriers in the last decade, I believe they used to have 21 full sized carriers prior to that, now they have 10 full sized and 10 smaller sized "mini" carriers. The main issue is cost.

A full sized aircraft carrier can cost up to 30 billion dollars, think about that number for a second. Americas total budget is 700b, Chinas is 200-300b. For China a full sized carrier may cost them up to 15% of their total budget for one craft that can be sinked by a missle that cost a few million dollars to produce.

And thats not the end of it, carriers require a huge crew and budget to maintain year round, thats 100s of millions a year budget for one craft just for maintenance.

I never stated Chinas military is superior to Americas, quite the opposite. I think you're getting too emotional over things for no reason.

The truth is if you hate China that much, and want to beat them, its better for you to not underestimate your opponent. But rather you should try to know everything about them, to understand them. Instead of thinking of them as incompetent fools, look into why they are a threat and how they got there. This is also a core difference between eastern and western philosophy.

"Know your Enemy and Know yourself"

Sun Tzu

 

[TemujinKhan]

This is such an awesome post. You are totally correct about China not trying to force their culture on Africa. America does like to force itself on others.

Cultural exchange occurs naturally, it shouldn't be forced. The difference in approach is that China doesn't care about implementing their system of government outside of their region, Not saying the CCP is being altruistic in any regard, for them its simply a business transaction. While doing business with Western Nations, African nations are often demanded to make policy reforms, human rights improvements, adoption of democratic systems, etc.

In theory this is not a bad thing, but in reality it doesn't work. Africans should govern other Africans. Any issues they are having, they need to sort out for themselves, and I believe they will. But first, they need infrastructure, prosperity and investment. Then you can start working on the other issues like human rights, democracy and policy reforms.

Can't put the cart before the horse.