Social Can homeless people be fined for sleeping outside? A rural Oregon city asks the US Supreme Court

[RoastBeast]

I think SOME people do who are addicted. But I’ve heard it argued here that drugs only impact a small percentage of homeless.

We've also heard it argued around here that men can get pregnant and breast feed babies.

We all use our own eyes and see what homeless people look and act like. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to be able to tell what a drug addict looks like. Yet the bleeding hearts here want to make everyone believe that the vast majority of these people are just good people who are down on their luck that either lost their jobs or got oppressed by a right wing something or other.

 

[RoastBeast]

Not sure what working homeless has to do with my mind, but ok. You ever been homeless?

Just the fact that you can look out at the world and see things with your own eyes and process them as something completely different than the rest of us.

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, that’s why I said it’s unpalatable. It’s cheaper to not do anything.

There's no such thing as doing nothing. Leaving them on the streets accrues all those other costs listed that you keep ignoring. This entire SCOTUS case us a waste of taxpayer resources.

 

[Sinister]

Just the fact that you can look out at the world and see things with your own eyes and process them as something completely different than the rest of us.

This has nothing to do with anything, its not an argument. Homelessness costs money if you hope to get a job. Moving into housing has skyrocketed in cost due to numerous factors, especially in cities, making it difficult, if not impossible to save enough money for move-in cost over whatever we think is an acceptable period of time. Many homeless have jobs but no homes. What part of this is beyond your grasp?

 

[Sara]

Do I need to explain the difference between private and public property?

No stop being condescending, our taxes pay for all public property, you can’t enjoy the park with your baby if you’re worried about needles in the sandboxes. I don’t want to go jog the nature park trails and be approached on the trails by meth heads for change.

You say where should they go then as if they have a right to drive people away from public places or hurt businesses by begging camped on the sidewalks in front, so are you letting them on your property? In front of your gym?

 

[Sara]

Hey if there’s foster families that are paid to take in kids maybe they can make foster families that take in adults for 1-2 months to get them back on their feet, but again the homeless they’re helping would have to follow the programs rules, be clean and off drugs.

 

[Sinister]

No stop being condescending, our taxes pay for all public property, you can’t enjoy the park with your baby if you’re worried about needles in the sandboxes. I don’t want to go jog the nature park trails and be approached on the trails by meth heads for change.

You say where should they go then as if they have a right to drive people away from public places or hurt businesses by begging camped on the sidewalks in front, so are you letting them on your property? In front of your gym?

Again you keep characterizing all of the homeless as harassing drug addicts.

The public have the right to access public lands, that's a fact. You cannot criminalize existence a d you cant merely ban people from public lands BECAUSE they are homeless. There are homeless people around my gym, and right around the corner from my house. I dont call 5-0 on them, but I would rather they be housed than bullied in circles.

 

[RoastBeast]

This has nothing to do with anything, its not an argument. Homelessness costs money if you hope to get a job. Moving into housing has skyrocketed in cost due to numerous factors, especially in cities, making it difficult, if not impossible to save enough money for move-in cost over whatever we think is an acceptable period of time. Many homeless have jobs but no homes. What part of this is beyond your grasp?

I'm just making an observation about how weird you view the world is all. The rest of us see mentally ill people with drug addictions walking around and you see normal employed people who just can't afford an apartment.

Just to entertain you, it depends on what your definition of having a job is. If having a job is working part time somewhere for min wage or part time under the table for a little cash, then yeah you can't afford housing. If there are "many" homeless people out there with full time jobs that can't afford housing, then they could get together and become roommates. They can rent a room in someone's house. They can move into a shitty trailer. There's options out there.

 

[panamaican]

Looks like estimates for Texas alone are 56-85k homeless which feels high.

Let’s consider “chronically homeless” and guess at 45k.

That would be 2 billion a year minimum for Texas alone. That would be about 1.5% of the annual budget for Texas. I suppose that could be doable.

I have to take issue with your numbers. There are people living on $15/hour, I can't imagine that a homeless person costs more than that to house/feed. Rent at $1000/month (on the high side) plus $300-$400/month on food. Maybe $100/month for utilities. I think it can be done for less than $20k/year.

Probably less if you house them communally.

Just for reference -- it's ~$40k to house a federal inmate and that includes all of the personnel required to run a prison.

 

[Rob Battisti]

There's no such thing as doing nothing. Leaving them on the streets accrues all those other costs listed that you keep ignoring. This entire SCOTUS case is a waste of taxpayer resources.

I am not ignoring them.

As I said, I am trying to reconcile those who say the burden is the same for all homeless people while saying he costs are associated with police and hospitalization due to drugs.

I am arguing that there is a disproportionately small number of extremely expensive individuals in the homeless community that drive the majority of the costs.

We can provide blanket shelter and housing accommodations indefinitely and create a large known cost associated with that. However, there is a low chance that this reduces the costs associated with the drug hospitalization. In essence, you’re going to double the cost without solving the issue.

My solution would be to provide shelter and food for 9 months along with job training and work requirements for the food and shelter. For those who are addicted, provide services with a three strikes policy.

You are wanting to solve homelessness and drug addiction without actually solving anything.

 

[Rob Battisti]

I have to take issue with your numbers. There are people living on $15/hour, I can't imagine that a homeless person costs more than that to house/feed. Rent at $1000/month (on the high side) plus $300-$400/month on food. Maybe $100/month for utilities. I think it can be done for less than $20k/year.

Probably less if you house them communally.

I would agree but was doing back of the napkin math. $30 a day for food and $100 a day for every associated with housing. That includes workers, training, housing maintenance etc.

 

[DoctorTaco]

I think SOME people do who are addicted. But I’ve heard it argued here that drugs only impact a small percentage of homeless.

Homelessness is a Venn diagram or people down and out on their luck, addicts, and mentally ill.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Homelessness is a Venn diagram or people down and out on their luck, addicts, and mentally ill.

I agree. Which is why you can’t say that it costs the government 50k per homeless person.

 

[panamaican]

I would agree but was doing back of the number math. $30 a day for food and $100 a day for every associated with housing. That includes workers, training, housing maintenance etc.

I think $30/day for food is way high. The average monthly grocery bill of 1 person is between $250 and $600. $30/day would put us above $800 and blowing past the high end of average.

Also, I edited my prior post to include that it's about $40k to house a federal inmate and that's including personnel for the prisons.

 

[Rob Battisti]

@panamaican if it’s 40k for inmates, the argument has to be that it is cost effective to NOT incarcerate.

So let’s say $30k.

For ATX, that would be $75,000,000 if the program were run well on a yearly basis.

 

[Sinister]

I'm just making an observation about how weird you view the world is all. The rest of us see mentally ill people with drug addictions walking around and you see normal employed people who just can't afford an apartment.

Just to entertain you, it depends on what your definition of having a job is. If having a job is working part time somewhere for min wage or part time under the table for a little cash, then yeah you can't afford housing. If there are "many" homeless people out there with full time jobs that can't afford housing, then they could get together and become roommates. They can rent a room in someone's house. They can move into a shitty trailer. There's options out there.

Please provide any evidence that that guy was either mentally ill or currently drug addicted. Please provide any evidence that I have not accounted for the fact that many homeless ARE mentally ill, or are drug addicted. Judging by your reply, you took one look at that video and seemed that particular guy either mentally ill or a drug addict and now you're attempting to chastise me for not viewing the World as cynically as you do. Despite the fact that I never stated he wasnt either. All I said was he is employed and is still having problems finding housing, nothing more.

And if you took a few minutes of your life to listen to the guy, he and the person taking the video discuss the issue of mental illness. But then again the channel is called "Invisible People"...you just made it clear how appropriate that is.

Do you honestly think renting a place for a group of homeless people is just that simple? Lol People with Government housing vouchers got evicted once the covid moratoriums ended because its NOT illegal for landlords to reject housing vouchers. Many apartments in cities are gatekeep by the need to go through brokers, they want documentation these people might not have readily available, landlords in many cities are choosing not to rent when their property is deemed eligible for rent control (which they advocate against), and many properties dont allow multiple roommates because NIMBY's make a stink about it being a halfway house. There's lots of red tape that gets in the way.

 

[Limbo Pete]

I think $30/day for food is way high. The average monthly grocery bill of 1 person is between $250 and $600. $30/day would put us above $800 and blowing past the high end of average.

Also, I edited my prior post to include that it's about $40k to house a federal inmate and that's including personnel for the prisons.

Additionally, trying to work out these numbers is complicated by the variance in resources people already do have. Being homeless doesn't mean you have nothing, or are incapable of getting any kind of income or support. There's a big difference in resource need and cost between a family of 4 living in a van vs a largely inchoate fentanyl addict passed out in the gutter. I'm not trying to disrupt the conversation, it's just very complicated stuff. That's part of why imo this particular SC case reeks so badly to me.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Additionally, trying to work out these numbers is complicated by the variance in resources people already do have. Being homeless doesn't mean you have nothing, or are incapable of getting any kind of income or support. There's a big difference in resource need and cost between a family of 4 living in a van vs a largely inchoate fentanyl addict passed out in the gutter. I'm not trying to disrupt the conversation, it's just very complicated stuff. That's part of why imo this particular SC case reeks so badly to me.

It’s a good and often misunderstood point

 

[panamaican]

@panamaican if it’s 40k for inmates, the argument has to be that it is cost effective to NOT incarcerate.

So let’s say $30k.

For ATX, that would be $75,000,000 if the program were run well on a yearly basis.

I still think it's less than $20k. So, $50 million on a well run program. Considering that we're sending magical billions to Ukraine every couple of months, I'd consider $50 million annually quite reasonable.

 

[Sinister]

I am not ignoring them.

As I said, I am trying to reconcile those who say the burden is the same for all homeless people while saying he costs are associated with police and hospitalization due to drugs.

I am arguing that there is a disproportionately small number of extremely expensive individuals in the homeless community that drive the majority of the costs.

We can provide blanket shelter and housing accommodations indefinitely and create a large known cost associated with that. However, there is a low chance that this reduces the costs associated with the drug hospitalization. In essence, you’re going to double the cost without solving the issue.

My solution would be to provide shelter and food for 9 months along with job training and work requirements for the food and shelter. For those who are addicted, provide services with a three strikes policy.

You are wanting to solve homelessness and drug addiction without actually solving anything.

No, I'm arguing that it takes longer than people who think homelessness is a choice or a moral failure think it does for a truly bad off person to get clean, if that's even the problem. Not all homeless people who need costly care are drug addicts, there are a significant portion who are also physically disabled, or who even ended up homeless due to medical issues.



Now keep in mind that guy said disability denied him 3 times after having his stroke. I've mentioned my Aunt before who had ALS. Thankfully she lived with my Mother, but before that she had an apartment, now imagine my Mother didnt live in the same City. My Aunt was also denied both disability and early SS when she was nearly immobile, and the Hospitsls kept sending her home because she had no more money. One of those Hospitals was one she worked at.

She would have literally possibly died in the streets. She has another Brother, who himself is disabled due to stroke.