Break down the Philly Shell defense for me.

[crooked]

the only person ive seen use it in MMA was Cyborg against Melvin Manhoef. Chuck's trainer teaches it but obviously chuck doesn't use it haha.

 

[aries]

hl of mayweather

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbugFaT6zi4

i watch a lot of james toney and see that he bends a lot to his right. is this part of the defense as well?

Yeah basically when he's 'bending' to the right he is bobbing but because he is side on to his opponent it allows him to bob out of the way of straight punches and hooks simultaneously. Where as if you were just straight on a lean to the right, a slip would still leave you open for the hook so you have to bob after to avoid that shot. He can also easily lean away in that position and combine it with the bob to enable fluid head movement which makes it hard for the opponent to hit you. It a position that really enables and assists good head movement.

Archie Moore was one of the major exponents of this old school style and was reknowned for being a very ellusive crafty fighter.

Kudos to Brandon for his excellent post.

 

[TsukinoKage]

Very boxing-specific, but if you're athletic enough and adjust to it the style is very dangerous both offensively and defensively.

 

[aries]

Very boxing-specific, but if you're athletic enough and adjust to it the style is very dangerous both offensively and defensively.

I think this is a bit of a misconception. James Toney has made this style his own and he is certainly not the most athletic boxer to ever step in the ring. Yes speed merchants like Mayweather use this style but certainly not exclusively.

Joe Louis used this style successfully and was always reknowned for his economy of movement and not his speed.

 

[mrpopenfresh]

It's really hard to get the boxing terminology, because every region gives a style a different name, and other stuff, well I'm pretty sure people make it up as they go along.

 

[Sinister]

Not really, most Boxing terminology is just old and has been around for forever. There's Historical references to most of them.

 

[Duende]

Wow, novel idea, punctuation, full word spelling, and capital letters.

Totally off topic, but spellcheck is dumbing down the next generation.

On topic: I'd like to also see an explanation of the Philly Shell Defense.

You and I would get along rather well, I'm guessing.

 

[pimpstrocity]

Never heard it called the "philly shell" but oh well. I read this thread before school this morning and it was on my mind all day. Rory, one of my trainers, uses this style very effectively so I have some limited experience with it, though I don't practice it myself, this is just what I've observed and found worked for him in sparring and worked against him when I'm in the ring with him.

Just want to say that most guys shouldn't even consider this style, while James Toney and Mayweather have had huge success with it (and De La Hoya even toys with it sometimes), those guys are the elite of the boxing world. This may not be too coherent as I'm just typing off of the top of my head and whatever goes into this post is just what popped into my thoughts at the time. Okay, here goes...

"Philly Shell"

basic things to note:

- Left hand held just above the waist, around stomach-height, held across the midsection (sometimes held at 90 degrees but not always) so that your left fist is nearly touching your right elbow

- right hand held high, you should be easily able to hold your chin between your thumb and pointer finger. Your elbow should be a couple of inches from the right of your belly button and very tight to your body

- Bury your chin in your left shoulder and roll it slightly forward

- your stance should be very "Sideways" (for boxers this is the norm but MMA guys may not be familiar with it so much - not saying you should use this in MMA of course hah), and you should carry your back foot somewhat in the bucket (slightly sideways)

- Very mobile stance, keep a "thumbtack under your heels" (i.e. don't plant your feet but you're not exactly on your toes either, there should be enough room for a thumbtack to fit under there). That isn't to say this style is restricted to outside fighting, James Toney makes great use of it on the inside, but it is primarily a defensive/counter-punching style and movement/footwork are both integral to good defense

- Keep your head in line or slightly outside of your opponent's left shoulder to further frustrate their attempts to establish the right hand when you're in close. This also works to put "pressure without punching" on your opponent, which will make them feel obligated to punch at such a close range. With your head outside of their left shoulders, slipping the jab is a small, easy movement, and their right hand is often not a viable shot in this position, so you're relatively safe. Still, being so close to them, they'll often feel obligated to throw leather (even in a less-than-ideal position like the one they're now in) which means more countering opportunities as they over-reach and get frustrated

some benefits I've noted with my limited experience with this style:

- jabbing from the waist (well not quite but it's from way down low) is very sneaky and will often catch your opponent and throw him off as it is a punch coming from below his field of vision. The punch you don't see is the one that hurts you, so a stiff jab can do some damage here as well as score consistently

- Left arm, being held so low, acts as an effective "shield" against body attacks (i.e. any efforts to hit that spleen as was discussed recently in another thread)

- inside fighting makes their body accessible to your short left hook. It won't be an overly powerful punch because you'll be somewhat crowded, but a) you'll score and b) body punches are about PLACEMENT not power, so don't think it won't hurt 'em. If you can create distance well with your left shoulder in addition to your "body shield" low-left, combined with effective use of the shoulder roll, it means you have little to worry about from their right side at all (where your left hook will be digging) other than the uppercut

- very solid defense if you can manage the shoulder roll, advanced head movement and right hand parry (however, often the shoulder roll will leave the punch glancing off of the crown of your head. It won't hurt, but it MAY score. Some of the advanced head movement tricks i.e. turn your turn away from a punch to move your chin out of range actually make the punch look more damaging that it is so be mindful that you will be undamaged physically, but it may hurt you in the judges eyes)

- big countering opportunities. The shoulder roll defense is used best to defend your opponent's cross and then twisting back with a right hand of your own (or an uppercut if you're in close) followed by a left hook to the body (as their right hand may be slow coming back, you could hit the liver and freeze them)

possible weaknesses to exploit (stuff that I've found that works when faced with these guys):
- If faced with this style, work their left shoulder HARD. Slam hooks and stiff jabs into the meat of their shoulder (doubling up from shoulder/head works nicely for either punch), being mindful of their right hand (turn your punches over fully to force your shoulder up to cover your chin against the cross). Try to keep outsider of their left shoulder (they'll be trying to same so it can end up you two jockeying for that sweet spot) so that it is aligned with your own left hand. This puts their "sneaky" low left in plain sight, right infront of you, forcing it to be your focus (considering the right hand is now less of a problem because you're so far to their left side) so you won't get caught and suprised by it. If you want to throw a right hand, that's fine and definitely does it's damage, just be wary of their shoulder roll/right hand counter - it's their bread and butter.

Eventually after a round or two of concentrating blows on that left shoulder, you'll "numb" their shoulder and blunt it's effectiveness, possibly even totally shutting out their jab and hook.

When you're working their shoulder, you aren't scoring, so these need to be power punches or they'se just a waste of your time/effort. Your goal here is DAMAGE, not points

- Use a consistent jab to occupy their right hand. They may not be as quick countering your jab with their left because it has to travel further than normal, so exploit that. Just watch out for the right hand parry/straight right hand counter. Mix in feints and hooks off of the jab to overload their right hand's workload and you'll land with some regularity

- Target the body often and with BAD INTENTIONS. Dig the straight right to the body lots! You'll either hit their body (awesome), or worst case scenario is that you'll whack their low left arm, which only helps build up the damage you're trying to do and slow them down even more

- counter their jab with your right hand. It's a bit toughter to roll their shoulder to absorb the right hand when they're retracting the jab with the same arm, not to mention the right hand parry/straight right hand is a great often unexpected parry in itself

All I can think of for now hope some of this is helpful and makes sense

damn, thats a man that knows his stuff, good post

 

[Tha_MMAn**]

Interesting technique...

 

[Separatista]

I also don't know the specifics of the "Philly Shell defense" but from what I read,
I think the main advantages of that defense is counter striking (primarily because it utilizes the shoulder roll technique). I think I saw a video of Roach teaching that...

YouTube - Countering the straight right in boxing

 

[Bodybuilder GR]

Never heard it called the "philly shell" but oh well. I read this thread before school this morning and it was on my mind all day. Rory, one of my trainers, uses this style very effectively so I have some limited experience with it, though I don't practice it myself, this is just what I've observed and found worked for him in sparring and worked against him when I'm in the ring with him.

Just want to say that most guys shouldn't even consider this style, while James Toney and Mayweather have had huge success with it (and De La Hoya even toys with it sometimes), those guys are the elite of the boxing world. This may not be too coherent as I'm just typing off of the top of my head and whatever goes into this post is just what popped into my thoughts at the time. Okay, here goes...

"Philly Shell"

basic things to note:

- Left hand held just above the waist, around stomach-height, held across the midsection (sometimes held at 90 degrees but not always) so that your left fist is nearly touching your right elbow

- right hand held high, you should be easily able to hold your chin between your thumb and pointer finger. Your elbow should be a couple of inches from the right of your belly button and very tight to your body

- Bury your chin in your left shoulder and roll it slightly forward

- your stance should be very "Sideways" (for boxers this is the norm but MMA guys may not be familiar with it so much - not saying you should use this in MMA of course hah), and you should carry your back foot somewhat in the bucket (slightly sideways)

- Very mobile stance, keep a "thumbtack under your heels" (i.e. don't plant your feet but you're not exactly on your toes either, there should be enough room for a thumbtack to fit under there). That isn't to say this style is restricted to outside fighting, James Toney makes great use of it on the inside, but it is primarily a defensive/counter-punching style and movement/footwork are both integral to good defense

- Keep your head in line or slightly outside of your opponent's left shoulder to further frustrate their attempts to establish the right hand when you're in close. This also works to put "pressure without punching" on your opponent, which will make them feel obligated to punch at such a close range. With your head outside of their left shoulders, slipping the jab is a small, easy movement, and their right hand is often not a viable shot in this position, so you're relatively safe. Still, being so close to them, they'll often feel obligated to throw leather (even in a less-than-ideal position like the one they're now in) which means more countering opportunities as they over-reach and get frustrated

some benefits I've noted with my limited experience with this style:

- jabbing from the waist (well not quite but it's from way down low) is very sneaky and will often catch your opponent and throw him off as it is a punch coming from below his field of vision. The punch you don't see is the one that hurts you, so a stiff jab can do some damage here as well as score consistently

- Left arm, being held so low, acts as an effective "shield" against body attacks (i.e. any efforts to hit that spleen as was discussed recently in another thread)

- inside fighting makes their body accessible to your short left hook. It won't be an overly powerful punch because you'll be somewhat crowded, but a) you'll score and b) body punches are about PLACEMENT not power, so don't think it won't hurt 'em. If you can create distance well with your left shoulder in addition to your "body shield" low-left, combined with effective use of the shoulder roll, it means you have little to worry about from their right side at all (where your left hook will be digging) other than the uppercut

- very solid defense if you can manage the shoulder roll, advanced head movement and right hand parry (however, often the shoulder roll will leave the punch glancing off of the crown of your head. It won't hurt, but it MAY score. Some of the advanced head movement tricks i.e. turn your turn away from a punch to move your chin out of range actually make the punch look more damaging that it is so be mindful that you will be undamaged physically, but it may hurt you in the judges eyes)

- big countering opportunities. The shoulder roll defense is used best to defend your opponent's cross and then twisting back with a right hand of your own (or an uppercut if you're in close) followed by a left hook to the body (as their right hand may be slow coming back, you could hit the liver and freeze them)

possible weaknesses to exploit (stuff that I've found that works when faced with these guys):
- If faced with this style, work their left shoulder HARD. Slam hooks and stiff jabs into the meat of their shoulder (doubling up from shoulder/head works nicely for either punch), being mindful of their right hand (turn your punches over fully to force your shoulder up to cover your chin against the cross). Try to keep outsider of their left shoulder (they'll be trying to same so it can end up you two jockeying for that sweet spot) so that it is aligned with your own left hand. This puts their "sneaky" low left in plain sight, right infront of you, forcing it to be your focus (considering the right hand is now less of a problem because you're so far to their left side) so you won't get caught and suprised by it. If you want to throw a right hand, that's fine and definitely does it's damage, just be wary of their shoulder roll/right hand counter - it's their bread and butter.

Eventually after a round or two of concentrating blows on that left shoulder, you'll "numb" their shoulder and blunt it's effectiveness, possibly even totally shutting out their jab and hook.

When you're working their shoulder, you aren't scoring, so these need to be power punches or they'se just a waste of your time/effort. Your goal here is DAMAGE, not points

- Use a consistent jab to occupy their right hand. They may not be as quick countering your jab with their left because it has to travel further than normal, so exploit that. Just watch out for the right hand parry/straight right hand counter. Mix in feints and hooks off of the jab to overload their right hand's workload and you'll land with some regularity

- Target the body often and with BAD INTENTIONS. Dig the straight right to the body lots! You'll either hit their body (awesome), or worst case scenario is that you'll whack their low left arm, which only helps build up the damage you're trying to do and slow them down even more

- counter their jab with your right hand. It's a bit toughter to roll their shoulder to absorb the right hand when they're retracting the jab with the same arm, not to mention the right hand parry/straight right hand is a great often unexpected parry in itself

All I can think of for now hope some of this is helpful and makes sense

thx

 

[NoPain]

Anyone uses philly shell def in mma ?

 

[barnowl]

Really good post Mcrea. I was just explain this same thing to guy last night after ju-jitsu that is thinking about MMA.

A couple of other names it has gone under: Philly Crab, Cronk Gym Style ( Name of a Philly Gym that had alot of fighter that used it is my understanding of this name), and just plain Crab.

 

[lukewall]

Really good post Mcrea. I was just explain this same thing to guy last night after ju-jitsu that is thinking about MMA.

A couple of other names it has gone under: Philly Crab, Cronk Gym Style ( Name of a Philly Gym that had alot of fighter that used it is my understanding of this name), and just plain Crab.

Really?

 

[GPSolano]

I think anderson silva is using this in MMA , but he only use this while stepping backward until he hits the fence.. I think the philly shell wouldnt be effective in MMA because the small gloves can penetrate the defense and the kicks will surely break your arms if not your hands.. but in boxing it is very effective but Im having problem with countering so I interchange the philly to normal stance..

correct me if Im wrong so I wont make the mistake again. :icon_lol:

 

[thirteen]

Very helpful post McRae.
There's a dude at boxing who uses the Philly shell and
has a bullshit fast jab. It's like trying to outstrike a Cobra-
get too close...smack to the face lol.

 

[TwoFour Lowkick]

This guy breaks it down pretty good, step by step and how you should use it:

 

[Connoisseur]

Via wiki:

Philly Shell or Crab - The lead arm (left for an orthodox fighter and right for a southpaw) is placed across the torso usually somewhere in between the belly button and chest and the lead hand rests on the opposite side of the fighter's torso. The back hand is placed on the side of the face (right side for orthodox fighters and left side for southpaws). The lead shoulder is brought in tight against the side of the face (left side for orthodox fighters and right side for southpaws). This style is used by fighters who like to counterpunch. To execute this guard a fighter must be very athletic and experienced. This style is so effective for counterpunching because it allows fighters to slip punches by rotating and dipping their upper body and causing blows to glance off the fighter. After the punch glances off, the fighter's back hand is in perfect position to hit their out-of-position opponent. The shoulder lean is used in this stance. To execute the shoulder lean a fighter rotates and ducks (to the right for orthodox fighters and to the left for southpaws) when their opponents punch is coming towards them and then rotates back towards their opponent while their opponent is bringing their hand back. The fighter will throw a punch with their back hand as they are rotating towards their undefended opponent. James Toney and Floyd Mayweather Jr. execute the shoulder lean perfectly according to technique. The weakness to this style is that when a fighter is stationary and not rotating they are open to be hit so a fighter must be athletic and well conditioned to effectively execute this style. To beat this style, fighters like to jab their opponents shoulder causing the shoulder and arm to be in pain and to demobilize that arm.

Boxing styles and technique - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

Where the fuck has Sinister been these days?

Anyway, the Philly Shell is something I do for shits and giggles in hands only sparring. I've actually gotten reasonably good at it and can use it against people who match me in skill. What its taught me is that rolling your shoulder doesn't necessarily have to be done out of the Philly Shell stance, it can be done with your hands up. Rolling your shoulder to deflect punches is much better than taking it on the glove especially in mma where the gloves are smaller and will hurt more when they crash into your face. It also loads up the right hand beautifully.

Also whats all this nonsense about it requiring special athleticism? James Tony was never a particularly athletic fighter and always had pretty slow feet. Its his positioning not his speed that allows him to fight like that.

 

[NuTzOnSwOll]

Where the fuck has Sinister been these days?

Anyway, the Philly Shell is something I do for shits and giggles in hands only sparring. I've actually gotten reasonably good at it and can use it against people who match me in skill. What its taught me is that rolling your shoulder doesn't necessarily have to be done out of the Philly Shell stance, it can be done with your hands up. Rolling your shoulder to deflect punches is much better than taking it on the glove especially in mma where the gloves are smaller and will hurt more when they crash into your face. It also loads up the right hand beautifully.

Also whats all this nonsense about it requiring special athleticism? James Tony was never a particularly athletic fighter and always had pretty slow feet. Its his positioning not his speed that allows him to fight like that.

Shit , i use it in MT sparring for shits n giggles and do quite allright with it.