Social Black Panther (War Room Discussion)

No. Black Panther the character has been around since 1960-something. Same with the Avengers and the X-Men. If people grew tired of these characters and these types of stories, comic books as a medium would have ended them already.

My brother made a salient point when we were talking about music. I was bitching about rehashed musical themes in pop music. He pointed out that it's always new for someone else. Why would they bored of something, just because you are.

Fleming debuted James Bond decades ago - people still like James Bond movies.

Here's the kicker - while you're fixated on the technical details of the film making, you're disregarding all of the other aspects of film that might draw people to it. For some, they are fascinated by the various types of superhero comparing and contrasting the powers and abilities of the figures. For others, they are drawn to the nostalgic elements. For some, they are interested in the film representation of a print medium.

And so the presentation of Black Panther is actually extremely different from the presentation of Thor. Different characters, different histories and the interest in seeing their film representation wouldn't be diminished because the technical crafting of the film is poor so long as the representations strike the right tone, rekindle the right nostalgia, retell the correct stories.
The characters aren't the problem, I understand rehashing characters. Like I said earlier I love Spiderman and have seen every film adaptation of that character. But for me its really the technical details that turn me off from these films.

Like I said, I understand the average film goer eating this up but I just figured critics might get bored but the opposite seems to be happening; these movies get higher and higher scores. Transformers was a very popular franchise for quite a while with film goers but that didn't stop critics from roasting those films. For some reason, the standard seems lower for Marvel.
 
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Check Discord brah.
 
The characters aren't the problem, I understand rehashing characters. Like I said earlier I love Spiderman and have seen every film adaptation of that character. But for me its really the technical details that turn me off from these films.

Like I said, I understand the average film goer eating this up but I just figured critics might get bored but the opposite seems to be happening; these movies get higher and higher scores. Transformers was a very popular franchise for quite a while with film goers but that didn't stop critics from roasting those films. For some reason, the standard seems lower for Marvel.

Or maybe the Marvel films are just better overall films.

You keep saying the technical details but I haven't asked - what is technically deficient about the Marvel films?
 
Is it crazy to say that '300' is objectively the better film?

Better story telling, better acting, hell - even better CGI (and it's 11 years older).

60% for 300, 100% for Black Panther?

That's a little weird.
 
Is it crazy to say that '300' is objectively the better film?

Better story telling, better acting, hell - even better CGI (and it's 11 years older).

60% for 300, 100% for Black Panther?

That's a little weird.

The violence in "300" was off putting to many. They found it gratuitous enough to actually dislike the film. BP doesn't come close to that level of stylized violence, it plays it very safe there.
 
Or maybe the Marvel films are just better overall films.

You keep saying the technical details but I haven't asked - what is technically deficient about the Marvel films?
I've mentioned the specific details many times ITT.
That's true and they deserve props for that but I think it comes at a cost. To be able to manage and integrate so many story lines other aspects of the film suffer because the studio needs to keep a tight rein on all these films. So while we're getting more intricate plot lines other aspects of the film like score, cinematography, and lighting suffer since they have to be, to some extent, standardized across all films. So each director has less creative input which means each film feels very similar to the last and to the next.
I've explained pretty thoroughly why I think these films are just not very good and yet they get yuge praise from critics. In a nutshell, these franchises are highly studio driven which reduces the creative control of each individual director and leads to a very similar, and bland, film-making style across the franchise. The score, the cinematography, the color palette, its all very bland and samey in the MCU. Really not very impressive films that for some reason these pleb critics eat up.
That's fine for you, you're the average film goer I was talking about. But I'd expect critics to be less impressed with films based almost entirely on basic shot, reverse shot dialogue and muddied action scenes regardless of how expensive the explosions are.
If you don't care to notice some of these things then they will go unnoticed obviously but once you see them its hard to unsee.

Also I hate the excessive use of quips, some of which are just plain bad like this one between Iron Man and Black Widow

Even when they're not terrible quips there's just too many and I think it hurts the tone of the film when they're injected into seemingly more serious scenes.

This guy breaks down why the action scenes in these films suck, contrasting them to Tarantino who is a box office winner but also a good film maker.

Similar reason as to why The Dark Knight has shitty action scenes, you can barely tell whats going on. Except TDK is good despite its bad action as it makes up for it elsewhere while The Avengers doesn't. The Dark Knight for instance has a great score but the Marvel films?

Basically, the music is very predictable, barely noticeable, and often is just ripped off from tracks of other films.

Compare that to the other blockbuster franchises he alludes to early in the video(Star Wars, Harry Potter, James Bond) and the difference is clear, Those films have very distinctive and evocative scores.

The films also have very flat and washed out colors which make them seem very dull relative to other films that are either shot in film or digitally shot and properly use color grading in post-production(which Marvel doesn't seem to do for some reason).

So far that's:
dialogue
action
score
color palette

So its lacking in key aspects relating to the visual and audio quality of the film on a technical level.
 
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The above shows the subjectivity of film since, while I don't really like the word (but I do of course know that it can only mean where I didn't particularly like a generally loved film), if I'm forced to name an overrated film it's usually The Dark Knight for me.
 
I've mentioned the specific details many times ITT.



If you don't care to notice some of these things then they will go unnoticed obviously but once you see them its hard to unsee.

Also I hate the excessive use of quips, some of which are just plain bad like this one between Iron Man and Black Widow

Even when they're not terrible quips there's just too many and I think it hurts the tone of the film when they're injected into seemingly more serious scenes.

This guy breaks down why the action scenes in these films suck, contrasting them to Taarantino who is a box office winner but also a good film maker.

Similar reason as to why The Dark Knight has shitty action scenes, you can barely tell whats going on. Except TDK is good despite its bad action as it makes up for it elsewhere while The Avengers doesn't. The Dark Knight for instance has a great score but the Marvel films?

Basically, the music is very predictable, barely noticeable, and often is just ripped off from tracks of other films.

Compare that to the other blockbuster franchises he alludes to early in the video(Star Wars, Harry Potter, James Bond) and the difference is clear, Those films have very distinctive and evocative scores.

The films also have very flat and washed out colors which make them seem very dull relative to other films that are either shot in film or digitally shot and properly use color grading in post-production(which Marvel doesn't seem to do for some reason).

So far that's:
dialogue
action
score
color palette

So its lacking in key aspects relating to the visual and audio quality on the film on a technical level.


I read those things but you never state that they are actually subpar. You point out how they could be better but not that they're actually bad. You might not like quips but the comic books are full of quips, many of them pretty bad. Staying in line with the source material makes the presence of quips a positive, not a negative.

That the action sequences don't rise to the level of Tarantino doesn't mean they're bad. Not great doesn't mean bad. That would be a very binary approach to judging film.

The standardization of the score, cinematography, color palette etc. are solid devices to maintain consistency across the films. Similar to how WalMart uses the same store layout whether you go to WalMArt in California or Nebraska. The visual consistency helps maintain the cohesiveness of the overall franchises across multiple films over multiple years where the audience might not see every single one of the films. In this regard, the comic books are another decent parallel. Comics try not to change artists or colors for similar reasons. The buyer knows what to expect. It would be too jarring for one film/comic book to present a set of visual cues only for the next stage in the story to use different ones.

Also many of your complaints seem to be about the repetitive nature of these things as opposed to the individual films. Let's say Thor 3 wasn't the 3rd film of the Thor franchise and the 15th film in the MCU, would you have the same critique if there were no predecessors or successor films?
 
The above shows the subjectivity of film since, while I don't really like the word (but I do of course know that it can only mean where I didn't particularly like a generally loved film), if I'm forced to name an overrated film it's usually The Dark Knight for me.
Well actually I might agree that The Dark Knight is overrated since at the time it was hyped as like the greatest film of all time. But its head and shoulders above the Marvel trash. The fight scenes are terrible, even worse than Marvel's garbage fight scenes, and yet the rest of the film(score, acting, plot, SFX etc) makes up for it. It has far more replay value IMO than any Marvel film.
 
Is it crazy to say that '300' is objectively the better film?

Better story telling, better acting, hell - even better CGI (and it's 11 years older).

60% for 300, 100% for Black Panther?

That's a little weird.
Atleast Fury Road has a 97% positive rating, same as BP.
 
Or real history can be taught in schools, instead of this white washed garbage and lies that black history began with slavery and ends with Barack Obama...and prior to this we were in the jungles. Lol at getting pride from a comic book
Jesus would you people lighten up. I'm not saying they should take a friggin comic book movie to heart but perhaps it could help spur up some interest in their own history from the mother land considering what a cool landscape it has shown.

When I saw 300 it got my all hyped up to read more about certain events between the Persians and Greeks and before that the mummy basically paved the way for my life long interest in history. Again those were movies but they can help stimulate some thought.

Calm. The. Fuck. Down.
 
Well actually I might agree that The Dark Knight is overrated since at the time it was hyped as like the greatest film of all time. But its head and shoulders above the Marvel trash. The fight scenes are terrible, even worse than Marvel's garbage fight scenes, and yet the rest of the film(score, acting, plot, SFX etc) makes up for it. It has far more replay value IMO than any Marvel film.

I wouldn't agree. It's technically well made (apart from said fight scenes, which are some of the worst) as all Nolan films are, but the script doesn't hold up at all for how seriously the film takes itself. With a different tone it might work better but to be that serious and not be able to write an intelligent villan and instead have him rely on luck and the complete incompetence of Gotham's police doesn't work for me. The tone of the film makes Dent's transformation stick out like a sore thumb as well. I don't even think the script does any of the good guys any favors.

I'm not much of a fan of the score either. At least not the main theme, and while I do appreciate trying to do something unique for the Joker, to use a siren ended up being annoying for me as it's a sound you could expect to hear in the world. Overall TDK for me shows where a film might be ambitious but failing in achieving it and therefor being surpassed by much less ambitious films that land their objectives.

I fully accept that my opinion is unusual though, and it would be more fun if I liked it. It just hits some of my film peeves though and I think it ends up being Nolan's second worst film. Maybe third.
 
I read those things but you never state that they are actually subpar. You point out how they could be better but not that they're actually bad. You might not like quips but the comic books are full of quips, many of them pretty bad. Staying in line with the source material makes the presence of quips a positive, not a negative.
I understand quips are a part of comics and I'm not saying they are in and of themselves bad. Spiderman's mid-fight quips are a consistent part of his character and it adds to his fight scenes. However, I think the way most Marvel movies use quips are ineffective most of the time in that they rarely add to a scene or sometimes detract from it.

Some are good for sure, like Captain America's "I get that reference". Its quip that only makes sense if you know Cap's character and back story.. Can't remember any specific ones right now but there are also some good quips directed at the Hulk and again they're good because they make references to the character.

Iron Man threatening to donate his AI fire extinguisher to a city college if it doused him again unnecessarily is also good because that line adds to the scene in that it gives you a sense of how long he was working on that specific project(long enough to have been doused numerous times unnecessarily).

But "I don't see how that's a party" is cringe worthy and its not the only one.
That the action sequences don't rise to the level of Tarantino doesn't mean they're bad. Not great doesn't mean bad. That would be a very binary approach to judging film.
But that's not what I said, I simply said the video contrasted the action in Marvel films with that of Tarantino and I mentioned that because Tarantino is a box office star who gets it right so you can't just lay the blame for the poor quality of action scenes on the fact that its a big budget blockbuster.

They're bad in their own right though. Their editing makes them hardly intelligible. They're a mess of slopy edits and bad sound design.
The standardization of the score, cinematography, color palette etc. are solid devices to maintain consistency across the films. Similar to how WalMart uses the same store layout whether you go to WalMArt in California or Nebraska. The visual consistency helps maintain the cohesiveness of the overall franchises across multiple films over multiple years where the audience might not see every single one of the films. In this regard, the comic books are another decent parallel. Comics try not to change artists or colors for similar reasons. The buyer knows what to expect. It would be too jarring for one film/comic book to present a set of visual cues only for the next stage in the story to use different ones.
I mentioned that already and I specifically said its this need to keep consistency that is partly to blame for the quality of their films. I understand it but it doesn't mean I have to like it. You cite Walmart, just because they have an efficient and consistent business model doesn't mean I necessarily have to like their business model. Certainly I don't frequent WalMart myself very often.
Also many of your complaints seem to be about the repetitive nature of these things as opposed to the individual films. Let's say Thor 3 wasn't the 3rd film of the Thor franchise and the 15th film in the MCU, would you have the same critique if there were no predecessors or successor films?
No, the films are individually not technically impressive and this is because they are part of a franchise as we talked about earlier. In fact its the opposite of what you claim, like I said earlier I was impressed by The Avengers not because its a technically interesting film in its own right but for the fact that it strung together heroes from multiple different films into one.

So yeah I would have the same critique.
 
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I wouldn't agree. It's technically well made (apart from said fight scenes, which are some of the worst) as all Nolan films are, but the script doesn't hold up at all for how seriously the film takes itself. With a different tone it might work better but to be that serious and not be able to write an intelligent villan and instead have him rely on luck and the complete incompetence of Gotham's police doesn't work for me. The tone of the film makes Dent's transformation stick out like a sore thumb as well. I don't even think the script does any of the good guys any favors.

I'm not much of a fan of the score either. At least not the main theme, and while I do appreciate trying to do something unique for the Joker, to use a siren ended up being annoying for me as it's a sound you could expect to hear in the world. Overall TDK for me shows where a film might be ambitious but failing in achieving it and therefor being surpassed by much less ambitious films that land their objectives.

I fully accept that my opinion is unusual though, and it would be more fun if I liked it. It just hits some of my film peeves though and I think it ends up being Nolan's second worst film. Maybe third.
To each his own I guess. I think its one of, if not the, best superhero film of all time though admittedly that's partly because I don't like a lot of superhero films and rate them rather low.
 
To each his own I guess. I think its one of, if not the, best superhero film of all time though admittedly that's partly because I don't like a lot of superhero films and rate them rather low.

That's a pretty common opinion. As said, I know my opinion on that film is uncommon but it is what it is. There's not exactly a shortage of films so there's something for everyone.
 
Jesus would you people lighten up. I'm not saying they should take a friggin comic book movie to heart but perhaps it could help spur up some interest in their own history from the mother land considering what a cool landscape it has shown.

When I saw 300 it got my all hyped up to read more about certain events between the Persians and Greeks and before that the mummy basically paved the way for my life long interest in history. Again those were movies but they can help stimulate some thought.

Calm. The. Fuck. Down.

I wasn't really talking to you directly bro. I was just venting
 
I wasn't really talking to you directly bro. I was just venting
I understand It's all good brethren but you did quote me. Didn't gather that. If people take this movie more than something that can help stretch the imagination a little bit than they are morons. So i do get it.
 
Is it crazy to say that '300' is objectively the better film?

Better story telling, better acting, hell - even better CGI (and it's 11 years older).

60% for 300, 100% for Black Panther?

That's a little weird.

You went and saw Black Panther?

I saw 300, and I think 60% sounds about right. I thought it was just okay, not something I could rewatch. Overstylized, to an extent that it was annoying to me. The dialogue and acting was terrible for the most part. It was meant to be like a comic, which I guess they achieved.
 
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