ATTN: Dirty Holt

waiguoren

waiguoren

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@Dirty Holt




I am on a closed guard breaking binge right now. I have seen your Tozi break variation video. Spent about 30 minutes exploring it with a training partner today and we are find it really hard to make it work.

Bear in mind we are both thin, lanky, reasonably flexible guys. The top guy reaches about the same position as you do in the video, but the guard just doesn't open. From there, the bottom guy can do a sort of crunch, burying his head in the top guy's torso and preventing further misalignment of the spine.

We feel it would work a lot better for chunkier guys passing people with stubbier legs...but then we feel like a lot of guard breaks work in tht situation. Can you offer any insight? Are you aware of this break being used in any elite-level matches (e.g. at ADCC)?

EDIT 1: I just watched your match against the 10th Planet guy and I saw that the same thing happened to you--you crunched the guy up but he kept his guard locked. On the bright side your positioning was rock solid so little to no risk of being swept/submitted.

EDIT 2: Forgot to mention it works like a charm if the guy's head stays glued to the mat. We focused on making his knee touch his head and it was unstoppable assuming his head was still on the mat. I'm just saying that if the guy is aware of it and built appropriately, he can tilt his head up and keep the guard.
 
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By the way, this guard break is different in several ways from the traditional Tozi/Sao Paulo/Wilson Reis break. I wish I knew a better name for it.
 
This is actually the original way Tozi set up this pass; the lower Reis style was the next iteration. Just a little history lesson.
 
I think the way Braulio Estima finishes the tozi is superior against lanky/flexible guys.
 
rmongler said:
Several in fact.


1:50






1:50
Click to expand...

I've only watched the first one so far but Braulio is so much bigger and stronger than that guy, plus that guy has pretty short legs. I want to focus on breaks that can work consistently against guys my size or bigger/longer
 
So, the videos all show people opening their guard. The problem is what to do when they refuse to open. This is one of my main guard breaks and my experience so far has told me that dropping your weight and putting on the presh is the main way to open the guard but I get lost when that doesn't work. My current plan of action in this scenario is to wait them out. Either they get tired and uncomfortable enough to open or they use a bunch of energy to move me off. Maybe there's a better solution but according to the @rmongler presh flow chart, I'm doing right.
 
FatherSauce said:
So, the videos all show people opening their guard. The problem is what to do when they refuse to open. This is one of my main guard breaks and my experience so far has told me that dropping your weight and putting on the presh is the main way to open the guard but I get lost when that doesn't work. My current plan of action in this scenario is to wait them out. Either they get tired and uncomfortable enough to open or they use a bunch of energy to move me off. Maybe there's a better solution but according to the @rmongler presh flow chart, I'm doing right.
Click to expand...
Yeah, as we were playing with it, we found that the bottom guy can curl his neck up and bury his head in the rib area of the top guy. This was preventing the top guy from further torquing the head and thereby misaligning the spine to the degree he needed. While this isn't very comfortable for the bottom guy, it feels sustainable. So in the end, the bottom guy can just wait it out.
 
I think that if you can curl into his torso semi comfortably, then the top guy's pressure is off. When I'm doing it, I want his knee to touch his nose and keep him there. If he's not getting more tired than I am in that position, then he's got an unusual body. Sometimes I'll get a guy near there and keep them there even if the guard is open just to take some of the fight out of him.

I like the way Braulio ties up the leg as he passes to get straight to side control but I haven't been able to do that yet without feeling like I'm losing too much stability. In fact I usually have my free arm over his head, elbow to temple/jaw and will push his face towards my hips if I get the chance. Probably would work better if I could turn it the other way though.
 
Whether or not his head is crunched up in your ribs or not doesnt make a difference. The difference is getting his face turned toward you, and the distance from his ear to his shoulder. If he can keep his spine in alignment by keeping his face forward, and keep his ear close to the far shoulder, you are gonna be in for a much tougher fight. Against long guys, you have to be prepared to unlock his feet with your hands. I broke a guys guard at nogi worlds that was probably 8 inches taller than me. I dont believe certain moves dont work against certain body types; more so that people with a certain body type are attracted more often to certain defensive strategies.

Against the 10th planet guy, he is a legit black belt that qualified for adult black belt nogi worlds, I still did break his guard with this move. I do not use this move as a pass; I use it as a guard break only.

Have I seen this move work in real life? I used it two or three times against the guy who took 2nd at ADCC trials last month when I beat him last year, and he is really good. I havent really seen many people use it the way I do, but I dont watch a lot of BJJ for fun; I only watch to scout opponents. The main thing I use this pass for is a tool against very good 10th Planet guys, wrestlers, or really strong guys. To me, it is simply a tool to get a guy to unlock his guard when he is dead set on staying there.
 
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Dirty Holt said:
Whether or not his head is crunched up in your ribs or not doesnt make a difference. The difference is getting his face turned toward you, and the distance from his ear to his shoulder. If he can keep his spine in alignment by keeping his face forward, and keep his ear close to the far shoulder, you are gonna be in for a much tougher fight. Against long guys, you have to be prepared to unlock his feet with your hands. I broke a guys guard at nogi worlds that was probably 8 inches taller than me. I dont believe certain moves dont work against certain body types; more so that people with a certain body type are attracted more often to certain defensive strategies.

Against the 10th planet guy, he is a legit black belt that qualified for adult black belt nogi worlds, I still did break his guard with this move. I do not use this move as a pass; I use it as a guard break only.

Have I seen this move work in real life? I used it two or three times against the guy who took 2nd at ADCC trials last month when I beat him last year, and he is really good. I havent really seen many people use it the way I do, but I dont watch a lot of BJJ for fun; I only watch to scout opponents. The main thing I use this pass for is a tool against very good 10th Planet guys, wrestlers, or really strong guys. To me, it is simply a tool to get a guy to unlock his guard when he is dead set on staying there.
Click to expand...
Maybe I'll describe the issue differently. Let's say you're loading him up on your left side, i.e. onto his right leg. You're going to have the underhook with your right arm. You pass your left elbow across his center line and use it to torque his head in a counter-clockwise direction. Of course, you're on your toes the whole time.

Now as you try to torque that head counterclockiwse, the guy crunches his neck and buries his head in the space behind your left tricep and armpit. Now it's hard for you to keep torquing the head. You mentioned the ear-to-shoulder distance, and I'm saying this distance is now limited by the fact that he is stuck to you now and can only move with you, while you are anchored to the shoulder via the underhook.
 
waiguoren said:
I've only watched the first one so far but Braulio is so much bigger and stronger than that guy, plus that guy has pretty short legs. I want to focus on breaks that can work consistently against guys my size or bigger/longer
Click to expand...


He does it in competition too, as shown in the next two vids.
 
rmongler said:
He does it in competition too, as shown in the next two vids.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I saw. Thanks for that. I still wonder if the guys he's hitting it on are seeing this technique for the 1st time though. It's not exactly a common guard break.
 
waiguoren said:
Yeah, I saw. Thanks for that. I still wonder if the guys he's hitting it on are seeing this technique for the 1st time though. It's not exactly a common guard break.
Click to expand...


The tozi pass is indeed not common like something like standing up and knee slicing; that works in ones favor though.
 
waiguoren said:
Maybe I'll describe the issue differently. Let's say you're loading him up on your left side, i.e. onto his right leg. You're going to have the underhook with your right arm. You pass your left elbow across his center line and use it to torque his head in a counter-clockwise direction. Of course, you're on your toes the whole time.

Now as you try to torque that head counterclockiwse, the guy crunches his neck and buries his head in the space behind your left tricep and armpit. Now it's hard for you to keep torquing the head. You mentioned the ear-to-shoulder distance, and I'm saying this distance is now limited by the fact that he is stuck to you now and can only move with you, while you are anchored to the shoulder via the underhook.
Click to expand...

I think one of your mistakes may be being on your toes the whole time. You can do it that way, but it makes it much harder to put pressure on his bottom leg. My goal when doing this pass is to pop up on my toes only enough to switch my hips after I get the headlock grip, then I try to put the edge of my hip in his knee pit while facing away and then after I bring my arm over his head I flatten to my stomach to put pressure against his calf and flatten his bottom leg.
 
waiguoren said:
Maybe I'll describe the issue differently. Let's say you're loading him up on your left side, i.e. onto his right leg. You're going to have the underhook with your right arm. You pass your left elbow across his center line and use it to torque his head in a counter-clockwise direction. Of course, you're on your toes the whole time.

Now as you try to torque that head counterclockiwse, the guy crunches his neck and buries his head in the space behind your left tricep and armpit. Now it's hard for you to keep torquing the head. You mentioned the ear-to-shoulder distance, and I'm saying this distance is now limited by the fact that he is stuck to you now and can only move with you, while you are anchored to the shoulder via the underhook.
Click to expand...
Then you have to use hip power to bring his hips toward his head. Your neck muscles get weaker the closer they get to your hips. When they are all crunched up like that, it is the easiest time to break the guard. My guess is you havent quite figured out how to manipulate the guys hips with your hips and footwork.
 
Dirty Holt said:
Whether or not his head is crunched up in your ribs or not doesnt make a difference. The difference is getting his face turned toward you, and the distance from his ear to his shoulder. If he can keep his spine in alignment by keeping his face forward, and keep his ear close to the far shoulder, you are gonna be in for a much tougher fight. Against long guys, you have to be prepared to unlock his feet with your hands. I broke a guys guard at nogi worlds that was probably 8 inches taller than me. I dont believe certain moves dont work against certain body types; more so that people with a certain body type are attracted more often to certain defensive strategies.

Against the 10th planet guy, he is a legit black belt that qualified for adult black belt nogi worlds, I still did break his guard with this move. I do not use this move as a pass; I use it as a guard break only.

Have I seen this move work in real life? I used it two or three times against the guy who took 2nd at ADCC trials last month when I beat him last year, and he is really good. I havent really seen many people use it the way I do, but I dont watch a lot of BJJ for fun; I only watch to scout opponents. The main thing I use this pass for is a tool against very good 10th Planet guys, wrestlers, or really strong guys. To me, it is simply a tool to get a guy to unlock his guard when he is dead set on staying there.
Click to expand...

have you ever used it in a street fight where it really counts?
 
rmongler said:
The tozi pass is indeed not common like something like standing up and knee slicing; that works in ones favor though.
Click to expand...
The one thing I don't like with the tozi pass is that you have to commit to the pass. You can abort if you want but it doesn't offer any transition you could spam when you're in the middle of it.

<{imoyeah}>
 
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