Are optics necessary?

[deadshot138]

I've got a Glock 19x, Remington 870 and a Colt m4. Do I need to shell out for optics for all of them? I need to get the Glock slide milled if that's the case as I fucked up and didn't get the MOS version. I don't mind iron sights but it seems like everyone has an optic on everything these days.

 

[RemyR]

Not exactly necessary. Personally I'm a fan of good tritium sights on a pistol but these days they make some good dots for pistols.

 

[deadshot138]

Not exactly necessary. Personally I'm a fan of good tritium sights on a pistol but these days they make some good dots for pistols.

Yep the 19x came with tritium night sights. Part of the selling point actually

 

[My Spot]

Nights sights on a pistol, Eotech on a rifle.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

I've got a Glock 19x, Remington 870 and a Colt m4. Do I need to shell out for optics for all of them? I need to get the Glock slide milled if that's the case as I fucked up and didn't get the MOS version. I don't mind iron sights but it seems like everyone has an optic on everything these days.

Here's a vid for you.



Personally I have a difficult time with red dots. If I look at the dot for more than a micro second it turns to a 1970s starburst special effect as seen on a worn out vhs tape. Absolutely horrible.

Similar to this


Dots do track faster sideways for me, but Honestly I shoot much better with Regular sights.

my opinion.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Here's a vid for you.



Personally I have a difficult time with red dots. If I look at the dot for more than a micro second it turns to a 1970s starburst special effect as seen on a worn out vhs tape. Absolutely horrible.

Similar to this
View attachment 1030545

Dots do track faster sideways for me, but Honestly I shoot much better with Regular sights.

my opinion.

Great vid, thanks for posting. I'm like TS and am used to irons but have been contemplating red dot. Hackathorn's opinion is consistent with everything I've heard about red dot being superior for distance, but no advantage at close range 0-10m. I'm also old enough to remember his analogies to lasers, Pachmayr wrap grips and the .40 cartridge. I distinctly remember a very reputable instructor telling me in the early 00's that ".40 S&W is the future of handgun cartridges and both 9mm and .45 will be obsolete in 10 years." LOL.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Great vid, thanks for posting. I'm like TS and am used to irons but have been contemplating red dot. Hackathorn's opinion is consistent with everything I've heard about red dot being superior for distance, but no advantage at close range 0-10m. I'm also old enough to remember his analogies to lasers, Pachmayr wrap grips and the .40 cartridge. I distinctly remember a very reputable instructor telling me in the early 00's that ".40 S&W is the future of handgun cartridges and both 9mm and .45 will be obsolete in 10 years." LOL.

You know, I have somewhat opposite experience with dots from his description. I find them better up close, tracking sideways. With a pistol they seem worse for me past 12 yards say. 25 yards, forget about it.

Same on rifles. if I'm 20 yards and closing they're not bad, but further back its terrible, and past 50 yards, I'd better just run. I feel much more settled with a scope. And for super close 20 yards and closing I have a laser. I feel at that distance it's superior cause you don't even have to find the dot in the sight, its on the target.

If 40 cal ammo was the same price as 9mm, it would've been the future, than again a 38 super could've been the goto round as well.

38 Super Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

www.ballistics101.com

I guess it sounded ol hat and 40cal sounded more cool?

Maybe lighter guns played into as well? Lighter the gun, more you need to hang on to it, so 9mm made it easier to get people qualified?

 

[ChickenBrother]

You know, I have somewhat opposite experience with dots from his description. I find them better up close, tracking sideways. With a pistol they seem worse for me past 12 yards say. 25 yards, forget about it.

Same on rifles. if I'm 20 yards and closing they're not bad, but further back its terrible, and past 50 yards, I'd better just run. I feel much more settled with a scope. And for super close 20 yards and closing I have a laser. I feel at that distance it's superior cause you don't even have to find the dot in the sight, its on the target.

Interesting you had the opposite experience with red dot. Are you near-sighted perhaps and maybe it's a vision issue? I haven't shot enough red dot to have an informed opinion other than dry firing buddies' glocks and CZs in the parking lot outside the gym lol. But everything I've read seems to indicate red dot is now standard on rifles but debatable for handguns - though most people seem to like them.

I'm planning to get a nice double stack 9mm sometime this year once I get my job schedule figured out and getting an aftermarket optics cut sounds like a PITA. So I'll have to figure out from the get go if I want red dot or not. For now I'm leaning toward skipping it and just getting fiber optic front sight. And I'm thinking light rail with a Surefire light with laser for the LOLs.

If 40 cal ammo was the same price as 9mm, it would've been the future, than again a 38 super could've been the goto round as well.

38 Super Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

www.ballistics101.com

I guess it sounded ol hat and 40cal sounded more cool?

Maybe lighter guns played into as well? Lighter the gun, more you need to hang on to it, so 9mm made it easier to get people qualified?

As a military vet who hasn't shot much pistol until recently, I think I agree with the online consensus that all pistol calibers pretty much suck. You're unlikely to get one shot stopping power with a pistol anyway so you might as well have as many rounds as possible.

IIRC 9mm becoming the standard was based on military adoption and associated supply chains. The U.S. went to 5.56 in the 60's when most of the rest of the world still liked 7.62, but the rest of NATO eventually came around to be compatible with us. Meanwhile the 1911 in .45 was standard issue until the 80's, while everyone else was using 9mm. So for political reasons, the U.S. accommodated our allies and went to the Beretta M9 in 1990, which also increased adoption across LEOs and civilians. And with all that additional demand, everyone started producing 9mm rounds, making them widely available and hence cheaper, further increasing its popularity.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Interesting you had the opposite experience with red dot. Are you near-sighted perhaps and maybe it's a vision issue? I haven't shot enough red dot to have an informed opinion other than dry firing buddies' glocks and CZs in the parking lot outside the gym lol. But everything I've read seems to indicate red dot is now standard on rifles but debatable for handguns - though most people seem to like them.

I'm planning to get a nice double stack 9mm sometime this year once I get my job schedule figured out and getting an aftermarket optics cut sounds like a PITA. So I'll have to figure out from the get go if I want red dot or not. For now I'm leaning toward skipping it and just getting fiber optic front sight. And I'm thinking light rail with a Surefire light with laser for the LOLs.



As a military vet who hasn't shot much pistol until recently, I think I agree with the online consensus that all pistol calibers pretty much suck. You're unlikely to get one shot stopping power with a pistol anyway so you might as well have as many rounds as possible.

IIRC 9mm becoming the standard was based on military adoption and associated supply chains. The U.S. went to 5.56 in the 60's when most of the rest of the world still liked 7.62, but the rest of NATO eventually came around to be compatible with us. Meanwhile the 1911 in .45 was standard issue until the 80's, while everyone else was using 9mm. So for political reasons, the U.S. accommodated our allies and went to the Beretta M9 in 1990, which also increased adoption across LEOs and civilians. And with all that additional demand, everyone started producing 9mm rounds, making them widely available and hence cheaper, further increasing its popularity.

I had PRK eye surgery years ago, direct light, (driving at night, etc) looks bursty with lots of halo. I could get glasses to fix it, but I refuse to pay for that just to see a sight that cost 1/2 the gun. I'll just practice more.



Absolutely, and all the guns are so light nowadays if you did have a kick-ass round it's more difficult to hang onto. Gotta split the difference, determine right length. I like having 10rnd mags for whatever I have when I travel through magazine limited States, like Colorado, New Mexico, and others.

I have my 45acp loaded to 500lbs of muzzle energy

Bullet Energy Calculator | Ballistics101.com

www.ballistics101.com

225grn bullet at 1010fps

That's like a 40cal, or standard load 10mm roundabouts.

From their energy charts, the old 45 long colts were bangers, but the gun prolly weighed 3-4lbs too.

125grn at 1200fp in a 4inch barrel is what I'm getting from the 9mm.
I believe that's 400lbs

1170fps in a 3.5 inch barrel. 380lbs.

A standard 230grn 45ACP is 352lbs so still more ass than that, with more rounds, less weight and less recoil.

its not maxx'n the cases or blowing primers, like a +P round without paying a fortune.

 

[Scrody]

I have yet to get any red dots for a pistol. I might in the future but at the moment I'm so used to regular sights that I don't know that it'd be worth my time. My 10mm is the only one I'd consider it for, but I'd have to just get another one cause I'm not cutting up the slide.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I had PRK eye surgery years ago, direct light, (driving at night, etc) looks bursty with lots of halo. I could get glasses to fix it, but I refuse to pay for that just to see a sight that cost 1/2 the gun. I'll just practice more.



Absolutely, and all the guns are so light nowadays if you did have a kick-ass round it's more difficult to hang onto. Gotta split the difference, determine right length. I like having 10rnd mags for whatever I have when I travel through magazine limited States, like Colorado, New Mexico, and others.

I have my 45acp loaded to 500lbs of muzzle energy

Bullet Energy Calculator | Ballistics101.com

www.ballistics101.com

225grn bullet at 1010fps

That's like a 40cal, or standard load 10mm roundabouts.

From their energy charts, the old 45 long colts were bangers, but the gun prolly weighed 3-4lbs too.

125grn at 1200fp in a 4inch barrel is what I'm getting from the 9mm.
I believe that's 400lbs

1170fps in a 3.5 inch barrel. 380lbs.

A standard 230grn 45ACP is 352lbs so still more ass than that, with more rounds, less weight and less recoil.

its not maxx'n the cases or blowing primers, like a +P round without paying a fortune.

OK that makes sense. I had LASIK 20 years ago and I also get some halo effect but it's a non-issue for me in daylight.

I've done a lot of reading up on relative muzzle velocities across calibers but I'm still not convinced it makes THAT much difference. My benchmark is my steel frame combat commander in .45 that I've had since mid-90's, and recoil on that is very manageable for me. I haven't fired much 9mm but on Glocks it's a non-issue for me and roughly comparable to .38 special on my 2.5" Python. But .357 mag from that same python is a wallop and I'd question my ability to land follow up shots with any reliability. Like in a self-defense situation I'm actually thinking I'd be better off with .38s than .357 because I know I can put 6 rounds on target.

With .45 vs. 9mm supposedly the heavier subsonic .45 has some advantages. I don't know. If ammo cost wasn't a factor, I'd be good with my Wilson 10 round mags (which have never jammed on me) and stick with single stack .45 because I'm used to it.

But I've only been going to the range once in a blue moon and I did a USPSA comp last year for shits and grins, and my placement came out at "you fucking suck." Unlike basic rifle marksmanship, no one is hitting the broad side of a barn let alone a moving target with a pistol unless you train and shoot regularly. And since 9mm is literally half the cost of .45, it's time I get with the program and start putting rounds downrange.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I have yet to get any red dots for a pistol. I might in the future but at the moment I'm so used to regular sights that I don't know that it'd be worth my time. My 10mm is the only one I'd consider it for, but I'd have to just get another one cause I'm not cutting up the slide.

Same dilemma here. I'm planning to get something new this year but am undecided on red dot. Leaning towards not. The problem is once you get the optics cutout, you have a big ass chunk missing from your slide with sharp edges, that makes it impractical to NOT have a red dot mounted. The best option I've seen is Nighthawk and their IOS cut, where the slide cut-out is removable so you can swap out red dot or irons at will.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

OK that makes sense. I had LASIK 20 years ago and I also get some halo effect but it's a non-issue for me in daylight.

I've done a lot of reading up on relative muzzle velocities across calibers but I'm still not convinced it makes THAT much difference. My benchmark is my steel frame combat commander in .45 that I've had since mid-90's, and recoil on that is very manageable for me. I haven't fired much 9mm but on Glocks it's a non-issue for me and roughly comparable to .38 special on my 2.5" Python. But .357 mag from that same python is a wallop and I'd question my ability to land follow up shots with any reliability. Like in a self-defense situation I'm actually thinking I'd be better off with .38s than .357 because I know I can put 6 rounds on target.

With .45 vs. 9mm supposedly the heavier subsonic .45 has some advantages. I don't know. If ammo cost wasn't a factor, I'd be good with my Wilson 10 round mags (which have never jammed on me) and stick with single stack .45 because I'm used to it.

But I've only been going to the range once in a blue moon and I did a USPSA comp last year for shits and grins, and my placement came out at "you fucking suck." Unlike basic rifle marksmanship, no one is hitting the broad side of a barn let alone a moving target with a pistol unless you train and shoot regularly. And since 9mm is literally half the cost of .45, it's time I get with the program and start putting rounds downrange.

I feel like the heavier wider entrance hole might provide some benefit over a smaller one, not to mention the inertia of the weight. Accurate hits a must either way.

Pistol comps are fun sometimes, if nothing else its a good way to judge progress under mild stress.

I never really competed with pistols to the extent I used to with rifles, so its still kind've fun to practice and work on things.

I'd like to see if I can make a hit on an 8 inch plate say, at 40 yards from low ready in under a second and a half.

I can hit something from that far, but not under any time constraint. Every time I lay off for a week or so I feel like I've lost 15%. Deflating......

What sort of 9 strikes your fancy if you were to buy one?

 

[ChickenBrother]

I feel like the heavier wider entrance hole might provide some benefit over a smaller one, not to mention the inertia of the weight. Accurate hits a must either way.

Pistol comps are fun sometimes, if nothing else its a good way to judge progress under mild stress.

I never really competed with pistols to the extent I used to with rifles, so its still kind've fun to practice and work on things.

I'd like to see if I can make a hit on an 8 inch plate say, at 40 yards from low ready in under a second and a half.

I can hit something from that far, but not under any time constraint. Every time I lay off for a week or so I feel like I've lost 15%. Deflating......

What sort of 9 strikes your fancy if you were to buy one?

Yeah I prefer .45 ACP but if I'm honest, it's mostly sentimental attachment and just feels better because I'm used to it. Same reason I prefer a 1911 to plastic 9mm Glock. I've only done two (want to do more), but pistol competition was a real eye opener on how hard it is to reliably hit anything with a pistol when you're running from station to station, breathing hard and having to fire from unconventional positions like behind oil drums or whatever. And the spinning wagon wheel thing, fugettaboutit. It's way fucking harder than just standing in a lane shooting at a paper target with no time limit.

I've been dry firing with laser trainer, but I know that's no replacement for regular range time. Like you say, you lose pistol training effect very quickly if you don't maintain.

As far as 9 goes, if I'm going to make that jump on account of ammo cost, it needs to be something that gives me wood in its own right and nicer than anything I have now. And a nice single stack 1911 in 9mm wouldn't be enough because that's the same 10 round capacity I already get with .45 with my wilson mags. I'm thinking double stack Alchemy Hi-Cap, Guncrafter Hellcat X2 or some kind of Nighthawk double stack with IOS cut. Then if I like that and am able to get to the range regularly, I'd pick up an SP5, MPX or other PCC with a brace or SBR and go all in on 9mm.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

I had a Springfield 2011 that I gave away to a buddy of mine. It was nice, bulky grip, but great shooter. A bit too good for me I hate to say. For a long time a 2lb 1911 trigger was all I ever shot, until I bought an XD45, and VP9sk. Took me a good 4000rnds to acclimate to dogshit plastic triggers, but I did. However now, I'm so out of tune with nice stuff, that I'd have to lock up my plastic shit and re-commit only to good stuff to get it back. I figured it was cheaper to give it away and keep the dogshit!



This ol goon reviews a lot of different stuff from a competitive shooter perspective. Some of it's pretty good sometimes.

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9mm makes complete sense for the same reason switching from 7mm-08 down to 5.56 in back in the rifle days. When I reached $1.20 per shot back in the late 90s, .48 cents for a 22cal started lookin real good! Plus if you compete, everyone you'll go up against will be running 9s, and the cadence is quicker since they don't recoil. Lots of 9mm masters out there, who's times and accuracy would drop if they suddenly had to run something that recoiled!

I'm digg'n my new long dong VP9, it points like a Gov't model, doesn't kick, shoots really well.

Be sure and post when you get something yo!View attachment 1030794View attachment 1030795View attachment 1030794View attachment 1030795View attachment 1030794View attachment 1030795View attachment 1030794

 

[ChickenBrother]

I had a Springfield 2011 that I gave away to a buddy of mine. It was nice, bulky grip, but great shooter. A bit too good for me I hate to say. For a long time a 2lb 1911 trigger was all I ever shot, until I bought an XD45, and VP9sk. Took me a good 4000rnds to acclimate to dogshit plastic triggers, but I did. However now, I'm so out of tune with nice stuff, that I'd have to lock up my plastic shit and re-commit only to good stuff to get it back. I figured it was cheaper to give it away and keep the dogshit!



This ol goon reviews a lot of different stuff from a competitive shooter perspective. Some of it's pretty good sometimes.

Loading…

www.youtube.com

9mm makes complete sense for the same reason switching from 7mm-08 down to 5.56 in back in the rifle days. When I reached $1.20 per shot back in the late 90s, .48 cents for a 22cal started lookin real good! Plus if you compete, everyone you'll go up against will be running 9s, and the cadence is quicker since they don't recoil. Lots of 9mm masters out there, who's times and accuracy would drop if they suddenly had to run something that recoiled!

I'm digg'n my new long dong VP9, it points like a Gov't model, doesn't kick, shoots really well.

Be sure and post when you get something yo!View attachment 1030794View attachment 1030795View attachment 1030794View attachment 1030795View attachment 1030794View attachment 1030795View attachment 1030794View attachment 1030802View attachment 1030803View attachment 1030804

You're a more practical man than me if you were able to go plastic and not look back. It's the bulk of what's out there, is much cheaper and if you're used to it now, no harm no foul.

But whatever your game, I'm a believer in train as you fight so I don't think I'll ever get a true race gun with 2 lb trigger and gigantic magwell or any of that fancy business. I need to be able to take it out of the nightstand, throw it in the glove compartment or carry in a pinch and not worry about an AD. So will probably stick with around 3.5 lbs trigger which is what I have on my Colt 1911. Whatever I end up getting, I'll post it here when I get it.

 

[Peteyandjia]

Necessary? No. All you really need for a pistol equipment-wise (besides mags/ammo, & some cleaning supplies) is a good quality holster, & a white light. If the light is an attached WML, great. If not, then a dedicated accompanying flashlight, & train in one of the various two handed methods to see which works best for you.

Same for a shotgun or rifle: I would stick a white light on it. And then the equivalent of a holster, which for a long gun, is a good quality sling.

Anything beyond a light & a holster/sling (which are necessities) is, to me anyways, extra. And once you find yourself starting to buy extra stuff for your gun, make sure you are not solving a problem that doesn't exist.

If you have money burning a hole in your pocket & you really want to throw it at your gun, instead of extra gadgets, I would suggest you could never go wrong spending it on higher level quality training instead, a good safe, & more ammo.

Just my $0.02

 

[RerouteToRemain]

Necessary? No. I like dots on everything but on pistols a nice fiber optic sight is good as well. I'm faster and more accurate with a dot from any distance.

I was hitting a 16" gong at 150 yards with my G17 with red dot.

I'm fine with irons out to 50 but the irons start becoming so large that it covers the target.

Shotguns I like a dot or bead/fiber optic sight set up vs ghost ring.

Rifle, optics all the way imo.

It's not difficult with irons but magnification is awesome imo. Lpvo 3.5 acog, mpvo, dot w/ magnifier.

 

[SummerStriker]

I've got a Glock 19x, Remington 870 and a Colt m4. Do I need to shell out for optics for all of them? I need to get the Glock slide milled if that's the case as I fucked up and didn't get the MOS version. I don't mind iron sights but it seems like everyone has an optic on everything these days.

I practiced with optics a lot and really believed in them, going so far as to put one in my carry guns. When I would train at 25 yards, it made me shoot like I was at 15. I thought they were very effective.

The issue came from finding the red dot off the draw.

Having an a consistent draw is vital to using a red dot. If you are good at it, you will always find the dot by aiming the normal way. Unfortunately for me, I carry IWB or pocket, and it is impossible for me to insure that I will have a perfect grip. If my grip isn't perfect, then when the dot fails to appear, I don't necessarily know WHY it doesn't, so I might need to aim up and down to find it.

This shows up in times drills where I have to draw and shoot. It adds a variable that trashes score.

If I were a cop with an OSB holster I can sety grip on perfectly, I think it would be an ideal tool for improving aim at 25+ yards.

As is, I went back to irons for my carry guns and only have an optic on my nightstand gun, a Glock 34.