Absence of choke holds in traditional martial arts

[JustOnce]

I am much interested in learning about the history of things, how things came to be, its past and its development, and it isn't different to martial arts, and compared to in the past, there are much more information readily available, but one thing that I am quite interested in would be the earliest indication of choke holds being used in any martial arts, outside Pankration.

Though not unlike informercials, Gracies wanna take a credit for a lot of things that existed in Judo, it appears to me throws and joint locks have existed in traditional martial arts in long times past, but what seems to be of glaring absence to me in my eyes i the mention of chokeholds. I mean, after the display of importance of grappling in early UFC, it looks like some traditional martial arts are teaching grappling or anti grappling and selling it as if it has always been part of their teachings or whatever, but martial arts do change so it's not about that, what I am curious about is that, if there has been any martial arts in the past, once again, outside Greek Pankration(sp?), that actually has taught and incorporated chokeholds?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

The gracies claim that jiu jitsu came from India so yeah...

 

[asian-glow]

I doubt there's going to be much scholarly research dating that far back, perhaps I'm mistaken

1. There's a dude named Roberto Pedreira who runs a website called global training report. His entries are fascinating to read. He also has some literature available for purchase on amazon like Jiu Jitsu in the South Zone; if his book is anything like his online entries I'm sure they are very insightful and interesting.

I'm unsure of this guy's formal/academic background but it seems almost certain that he has a background in academia.

2. There's also a dude on reddit named chicagojoewalcott. He works in academia and has written extensively about wrestling. I would definitely drop him a line. If he doesn't know, I'm sure he could point you in the right direction.

I don't know how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go but I think these guys, u/chicagojoewalcott in particular, could help you dig til you hit China.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Presumably you're aware that most of the chokes in BJJ come from Judo? For Japanese martial arts the oldest one I'm sure about having strangles is Hontai Yoshin Ryu, which was founded in 1660. Quite probably they appear in some of the older extant koryu as well.
In Europe there are choke holds in some of the earliest material we have.
I don't think there's any reason to think there was a total lack of chokes in any period of martial arts in either (or any) place. They tended to be de-emphasised a bit in instructional material for people who carried multiple bladed weapons all the time and didn't mind using them to kill their opponents.

 

[JustOnce]

Presumably you're aware that most of the chokes in BJJ come from Judo? For Japanese martial arts the oldest one I'm sure about having strangles is Hontai Yoshin Ryu, which was founded in 1660. Quite probably they appear in some of the older extant koryu as well.
In Europe there are choke holds in some of the earliest material we have.
I don't think there's any reason to think there was a total lack of chokes in any period of martial arts in either (or any) place. They tended to be de-emphasised a bit in instructional material for people who carried multiple bladed weapons all the time and didn't mind using them to kill their opponents.

Interesting! I haven't heard of Hontain Yoshin Ryu before, where can I find more about it? I don't seem to be able to find much on it, especially whether they have chokeholds or not. If they did like you say, then it would appear for me, that would be the oldest martial arts that had chokeholds in its arsenal.
About Europe, I can't really say. I see your drawing, but I'm not sure if it was just something out of spontaeneity, or something that was trained techniques

 

[JustOnce]

I doubt there's going to be much scholarly research dating that far back, perhaps I'm mistaken

1. There's a dude named Roberto Pedreira who runs a website called global training report. His entries are fascinating to read. He also has some literature available for purchase on amazon like Jiu Jitsu in the South Zone; if his book is anything like his online entries I'm sure they are very insightful and interesting.

I'm unsure of this guy's formal/academic background but it seems almost certain that he has a background in academia.

2. There's also a dude on reddit named chicagojoewalcott. He works in academia and has written extensively about wrestling. I would definitely drop him a line. If he doesn't know, I'm sure he could point you in the right direction.

I don't know how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go but I think these guys, u/chicagojoewalcott in particular, could help you dig til you hit China.

I guess it's little paradoxical, but I guess it's hard for me to trust a singular source, though it's kinda ridicuous for me to say since i'm asking to have a convo on sherdog forums about it, but maybe I guess I am hoping for someone with a source I guess. Thanks tho!

 

[JustOnce]

The gracies claim that jiu jitsu came from India so yeah...

Gracies claim a lot of things. I kinda get a bit of a cult leader vibe from them, but maybe it's me. Something about them and group mentality and this shit is ours vibe...

 

[yetanother]

Gracies claim a lot of things. I kinda get a bit of a cult leader vibe from them, but maybe it's me. Something about them and group mentality and this shit is ours vibe...

Wasn't Carlos Gracie making his living as an literal evil cult leader?

 

[TheMaster]

I am much interested in learning about the history of things, how things came to be, its past and its development, and it isn't different to martial arts, and compared to in the past, there are much more information readily available, but one thing that I am quite interested in would be the earliest indication of choke holds being used in any martial arts, outside Pankration.

Though not unlike informercials, Gracies wanna take a credit for a lot of things that existed in Judo, it appears to me throws and joint locks have existed in traditional martial arts in long times past, but what seems to be of glaring absence to me in my eyes i the mention of chokeholds. I mean, after the display of importance of grappling in early UFC, it looks like some traditional martial arts are teaching grappling or anti grappling and selling it as if it has always been part of their teachings or whatever, but martial arts do change so it's not about that, what I am curious about is that, if there has been any martial arts in the past, once again, outside Greek Pankration(sp?), that actually has taught and incorporated chokeholds?

Chokeholds (airway compression) and strangle holds ( blood to brain restriction, mistakenly but commonly called 'blood chokes') are in traditional martial arts.

Traditional Japanese styles of Ju Jutsu have them, from which derive Judo chokes and strangles and hence BJJ.

Also many kungfu styles use basic chokes like clavicle grab.

Quite sure many traditional wrestling styles also knew of them but had them for 'non competing' use also.

 

[JustOnce]

Chokeholds (airway compression) and strangle holds ( blood to brain restriction, mistakenly but commonly called 'blood chokes') are in traditional martial arts.

Traditional Japanese styles of Ju Jutsu have them, from which derive Judo chokes and strangles and hence BJJ.

Also many kungfu styles use basic chokes like clavicle grab.

Quite sure many traditional wrestling styles also knew of them but had them for 'non competing' use also.

I am talking long before ju jitsu

 

[TheMaster]

I am talking long before ju jitsu

The anscestor styles of what came to be called Ju Jutsu would have had them

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Interesting! I haven't heard of Hontain Yoshin Ryu before, where can I find more about it? I don't seem to be able to find much on it, especially whether they have chokeholds or not. If they did like you say, then it would appear for me, that would be the oldest martial arts that had chokeholds in its arsenal.
About Europe, I can't really say. I see your drawing, but I'm not sure if it was just something out of spontaeneity, or something that was trained techniques

They are literally from instructional manuals?

 

[JustOnce]

They are literally from instructional manuals?

Of?

 

[JustOnce]

The anscestor styles of what came to be called Ju Jutsu would have had them

I dont know if there was tho

 

[Bluesbreaker]

I know very little about it, but I'd imagine chin na contains some chokes.

Having said that, the vibe I get from chin na is that people might talk about it, but nobody has any physical experience with it.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Of?

Martial arts???? If you're interested in knowing more you could follow some of the links from those pages or Google the names of the manuscripts?

 

[KnightTemplar]

The gracies claim that jiu jitsu came from India so yeah...

That's a new one on me. Do you have a source/link for that? Every time I've read or heard the Gracies speak about the origins of their Art, they mention Judo.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

That's a new one on me. Do you have a source/link for that?

It's a fairly standard martial arts myth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharma#Shaolin_boxing

Every time I've read or heard the Gracies speak about the origins of their Art, they mention Judo.

They often do these days, up until at least the mid-2000s it was standard patter that GJJ came direct from Japanese jiu jitsu and Judo was a mere sport version. Renzo/Danaher's otherwise-excellent Mastering Jujitsu (2003) goes so far as to claim Mitusyo Maeda forr a koryu jiu jitsu guy which is nonsense.

 

[TheMaster]

The gracies claim that jiu jitsu came from India so yeah...

Is quite possible but we would be going a long long way back. Their TMA currently is more weapons based but they have folk wrestling also.
Alot of high level BJJ guys like big Nog I notice swear by yoga as the 'secret' to taking their grappling to the next level as well.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

View attachment 473821

Is quite possible but we would be going a long long way back. Their TMA currently is more weapons based but they have folk wrestling also.
Alot of high level BJJ guys like big Nog I notice swear by yoga as the 'secret' to taking their grappling to the next level as well.

Yoga makes you strong and flexible of course, both things you need In geappling... I’m about to start yoga too, I’m getting too old and my body too stifff