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what do you think? I've found alot of good stuff in his instructionals. also go to 11:11 to see a lead leg kick into spinning back kick.
A good vid of using angles,kicks and punches to set up the head kick, Karate Style
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Ah, Wado Ryu! Interesting MA. It has a lot of traditional Jujitsu movements and techniques, but also has many of the Japanese Samurai Iaito sword stances and martial positioning and tactics. I'd never seen that in depth kicking technique from them. I always thought of Wado Ryu as hybrid Judo with Atemi and arm lock throws. It's really in depth and covers a ton of fighting technique. I just saw one clip where the Sensei's doing a Juji Gatame(arm bar) back in 1990 on wooden floors, LOL!
In that part of the clip you highlighted hee reverses his momentum between the RHK and the SBK. So he's moving forward for the RHK moves backwards as he sets up for the SB and moves forward.
We were always taught to use the follow through momentum from the RHK to augment the power in the SBK. That way you can chain 4 or 5 techniques off of the same energy.
Also when he lands he has his back to his Uke. You can jump spin extend and rechamber and follow through with the end of the spin facing forward, maintaining your balance and structure with your hands protecting your head. I use to do a modified version of that drill with a backfist or close up reverse elbow as I re established my guarded fighting stance protecting my head. The guy at 15:48 is returning to a protected fighting stance. Really nice technique!
K saw the combo you pointed out in context by watching the whole clip. He does @ 7:00 the momentum flow for power in a SBK.
Man he seems like a great teacher and fun guy to learn from! Enthusiastic and encouraging the students. I've been to tons of seminars with great practitioners, but dower people in life. It's harder to take what someone's teaching you if you don't respect the way they treat their Ukes and students.
In that part of the clip you highlighted hee reverses his momentum between the RHK and the SBK. So he's moving forward for the RHK moves backwards as he sets up for the SB and moves forward.
We were always taught to use the follow through momentum from the RHK to augment the power in the SBK. That way you can chain 4 or 5 techniques off of the same energy.
Also when he lands he has his back to his Uke. You can jump spin extend and rechamber and follow through with the end of the spin facing forward, maintaining your balance and structure with your hands protecting your head. I use to do a modified version of that drill with a backfist or close up reverse elbow as I re established my guarded fighting stance protecting my head. The guy at 15:48 is returning to a protected fighting stance. Really nice technique!
K saw the combo you pointed out in context by watching the whole clip. He does @ 7:00 the momentum flow for power in a SBK.
Man he seems like a great teacher and fun guy to learn from! Enthusiastic and encouraging the students. I've been to tons of seminars with great practitioners, but dower people in life. It's harder to take what someone's teaching you if you don't respect the way they treat their Ukes and students.
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yeah I know right! he has alot of gems and hours and hours of kumite teaching on youtube! I love how he treats the children. Alot of this stuff is what is good about Machida karate. i almost wish machida wouldve seen some of this and used it, the small number of techniques really hurt him in his prime.instead of going into that weird hybrid muay thai style he has now.
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I think its for point fighting. It wouldnt be too hard to follow all the way through ,pivot and land in a side stance. Its also probably for power.
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Event if it's for point fighting, it's seems to me dangerous to get this habit. What if you miss or get blocked and don't get the point? You are not only in a bad position to defend your self, but you may even loose sight of your opponent.
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CF group explained it, watch at 7:00 and then watch how he taught the kid to do it.
LOL, I was getting sucked into the Youtube black hole, but gotta jet to pickup the old lady.
That's why I pointed out the technique at 7:00. He returns to a solid defensive fighting stance...I was thinking of the combo's I use to train and started with returning to that defending stance but as I progressed realized that a backfist or reverse elbow follow through is right there. I started to think of it as what u said "loosing sight of your opponent" and just having that reverse technique in there reflexively to clear of an advancing opponent who times the SBK and moves in on you.
That stuff came after I stopped competing TKD or amateur KB cause under those rules you can't elbow people in the face. But working with that high level flow mechanics I started to see many more angles and techniques to change up my game.
A few years later I got to train with a real Japanese trained Okinawan Kempo and Go Ju SanDan. He said every block is a strike and every strike is a block with the right angle vs your opponent. I've mentioned Dave before but even in Judo throws all of his Tsukuri entries were strikes off of his hands elbows and shoulders. It's like getting thrown by a chain saw. But he solidified the theorizing I'd done from my time in full contact comp and afterwards, light sparring with buddies.
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You are sure you mean 7:00 ? He is clearly in a bad position there after the "horse kick".
I understand when you say that the back fist/elbow as a follow through is right there, as long as you continue the rotation. (kind of same think in MT after a missing roundhouse). And that rotation will also make him repositioning himself facing his opponent. But he doesn't continue the rotation at all. He kicks, and "freezes" with his back towards the opponent.
I understand when you say that the back fist/elbow as a follow through is right there, as long as you continue the rotation. (kind of same think in MT after a missing roundhouse). And that rotation will also make him repositioning himself facing his opponent. But he doesn't continue the rotation at all. He kicks, and "freezes" with his back towards the opponent.
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its after that a little bit. you see he showed the kid how to do it while turning around to face the opponent.
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We don't see him demonstrate it. Every time he shows the back kick/jumping back kick during the videos, he lands with the back to the opponent and ends it there. I don't want to comment on the way the kid does it, because i don't know if it's the proper way or just let the kid concentrate on the kick, and not the repositioning. (Also i don't know if you learn to fight from both stance or just from one). When the others do it around 12h00, you see that every one (in the background) kinda just do whatever...
He shows and pays attention to details, so i don't understand why not to that particular part.
I have trained in a couple schools that have spinning shits. The only one who insisted in the right way to land, was my main ITF TKD school. All the others, was kind a just "recover your footing" the best way you can.
The way i learned it, there are 3 main ways to reposition your self, and they depend on how is your balance when you retract your kicking leg after the impact. I don't know if i will be able to explain it properly but:
Lets say, we have an orthodox stance and we back kick with the right leg (clockwise rotation). The force of the impact will make your leg go back towards either:
-Perfectly straight to your center line. That means the target was exactly in front of you, the kick was straight. To reposition your self you retract your right foot where the left is, and with the left, you hop it back. You land in a southpaw position. Some may cross the right foot, planted it, then move the left foot back (making a small step).
-A little to your left. That happens when your target was either closer than the optimum distance, or to your left. You then retract the kick the "way it came". You do a rotation opposite to the rotation made when kicking (counter clockwise). If it's a simple back kick (not jumping), the planted foot doesn't need to move, just pivot. You are back to orthodox
-A little to your right. Your opponent was probably further away, or to your right. You then retract your leg continuing the rotation (making a 360 clockwise movement). Same as before, planted foot doesn't need to move, just to pivot, and you are back to orthodox. This is the most rare situation. You may some times need to "transform" you back kick to a spinning hook kick.
If the impact has not enough power to make your leg go backwards, you just retract your kicking leg, and put it down in front on a southpaw stance.
Those are the fastest way to reposition your self after the back kick. You have to train it a lot so that it becomes just a reflex, a soon as the strike is landed and you are "feeling" which way the force is pushing back your leg.
I don't know if I made myself clear... You just use the power of the impact to go back to your stance. You don't go against it.
He shows and pays attention to details, so i don't understand why not to that particular part.
I have trained in a couple schools that have spinning shits. The only one who insisted in the right way to land, was my main ITF TKD school. All the others, was kind a just "recover your footing" the best way you can.
The way i learned it, there are 3 main ways to reposition your self, and they depend on how is your balance when you retract your kicking leg after the impact. I don't know if i will be able to explain it properly but:
Lets say, we have an orthodox stance and we back kick with the right leg (clockwise rotation). The force of the impact will make your leg go back towards either:
-Perfectly straight to your center line. That means the target was exactly in front of you, the kick was straight. To reposition your self you retract your right foot where the left is, and with the left, you hop it back. You land in a southpaw position. Some may cross the right foot, planted it, then move the left foot back (making a small step).
-A little to your left. That happens when your target was either closer than the optimum distance, or to your left. You then retract the kick the "way it came". You do a rotation opposite to the rotation made when kicking (counter clockwise). If it's a simple back kick (not jumping), the planted foot doesn't need to move, just pivot. You are back to orthodox
-A little to your right. Your opponent was probably further away, or to your right. You then retract your leg continuing the rotation (making a 360 clockwise movement). Same as before, planted foot doesn't need to move, just to pivot, and you are back to orthodox. This is the most rare situation. You may some times need to "transform" you back kick to a spinning hook kick.
If the impact has not enough power to make your leg go backwards, you just retract your kicking leg, and put it down in front on a southpaw stance.
Those are the fastest way to reposition your self after the back kick. You have to train it a lot so that it becomes just a reflex, a soon as the strike is landed and you are "feeling" which way the force is pushing back your leg.
I don't know if I made myself clear... You just use the power of the impact to go back to your stance. You don't go against it.
Good explanation, that "feel" you reference in replanting your kicking leg changes with the impact you make against an opponent or heavy bag or paddle.
I would land back to southpaw defensive from a right SBK sometimes, but ideally I would want to land in the same stance, orthodox, I started the right SBK in. In a sparring situation I'm chasing my opponent with the combo(s). That's requiring my opponent to be moving back or circling away from me. By landing back in the same side orthodox stance I've stopped that forward movement earlier than landing in the southpaw stance.
Try it out. Start orthodox, front left RHK follow through with the right SBK and finish that rotation back in orthodox. Now do it again starting from the same spot but end in southpaw from the right SBK. You'll have an extra stance distance forward landing in the southpaw. I can gain some extra breathing room space from my opponent ending in an orthodox stance, because as you pointed out "you lose sight of your opponent". That extra rotation back to orthodox is where that right backfist/elbow gets its power and defensive clearing off advantage from.
Good stuff lads, good stuff!
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To me, hopping back to a southpaw stance is faster than rotating back to orthodox. But i loose the momentum, and i got to "reset" the combos if i want to continue striking. But i am quickly in a good position to defend, or to attack fast again in a straight line with side kicks for example.
If i rotate back i can continue the combos with other strikes that need a rotation from the body. For you it's spinning elbows and back fists, in TKD you can go with roundhouse, 360, spinning hooks or another back kick (depending which side you have rotated back). But with the rotation there is a brief moment that i am not in a good position/balance to defend my self. (even when you add the elbow)
Since my basic art is Muay Thai, i use the teep a lot. I have a lot of success with it in TKD when they rotate. Either in the rotation before landing the strike, either in the rotation when they try to reposition them selves after the strike. 9 out of 10, they will fall down. But if they hop back to a south paw stance, they don't give me that second opening.
Two benefits from TKD are:
That you learn to fight from both stances. (so it's doesn't matter in witch stance you land)
And the other one is that you learn to do combos that chain together well, without loosing momentum. Rotation with rotation, or straight with straight. If you add a straight kick in between rotation, you have lost that momentum, so you have to "restart" the rotation. Of course in a sparring situation you use what your opponent gives you, and you can use the body movement as a feint. (rotation of the body to a straight strike)
The back kick is a little special, because even if you rotate the body, the strike is a straight one. Also you have lots of variations, from horse kick to a more spinning side kick. So the repositioning is a lot harder to predict. That's why i thing it's important to train it, and not just land randomly. And that's what i wanted to see from the video. Since the guy has good technique, i don't understand why he lands the way he does.
Anyway, nice discussion.
Teep in Muay Thai is Jillo or Mil Chagi push front kick in TKD, my go to was a side Mil a Chagi where you push off your opponents hip to interrupt their rhythm. I think I saw a clip of JDS accidentally landing one and launching his opponent into the fence(crap I'll never find it)
Good point about the SBK being more of a straight kick. Even in that clip, Dan rank students are over rotating there hip. SBK is a vertical position, meaning your butt is pointed to the sky and your knee is pointed to the ground. I drilled that heavily to fine tune the nuance before advancing to SHK or spin wheel kick. The position of your hips makes a huge difference if you can continue uninterrupted momentum. As you said SBK stops your momentum more than a wheel kick.
I think after a right SBK you just put your foot back on the floor to land in southpaw, right side forward....I've trained a lot of Iaido Samurai based weapons tactics where you start in southpaw with the control hand in the forward grip of the weapon...It's been a few years since I trained high level striking and it's gotten rusty. But I think if you SBK with the right leg if you put it right down after you'll be in southpaw without any skip step...
But...If you're looking for defensive positioning, landing in southpaw and skip stepping back is an effective way to start circling momentum.
Cool, cool!
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I find it very hard to just put down the leg after a back kick and be in a good fighting stance. The impact makes the leg go back so either you hop back with the planted foot, either the kicking leg crosses the planted foot and you have to make a step to readjust your stance. The second option is what a lot of guys do in the video, and personally I find it dangerous. But it's even worst when a rotation is needed instead. Not only they are crossing their feet, but the upper body is half turned and completely of balance.
I have used the teep to block the thighs while they start to kick. It's not a technique I start with that intention, but it happens a lot when you see the opening while your leg is raising.
Even if in TKD they differentiate the push/front/thrusting kick, I have only see them train the front kick. They prefer the side kick for the other 2 variation.
I really like to use the teep in TKD, it's something they are not used to deal with. Specially since i became good enough to use both the front and back leg to do it, so i got a lot more options with feints.
It's also allows me to block some body kicks with a knee check and not get a foul since it looks like i just got caught in the middle of a Teep.
(they don't really use front kicks either, the stance doesn't really allow it)
The problem is that i need a more MT stance, and not as side stance used in TKD...So they get some other openings, my back and forth movement is slower, and my spinning shits have to travel a bigger distance.
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Seiji Nishimura was japanese national head coach for point karate (JKF -not just his own wado ryu) when japanese karate was on top in the point karate world, and he has never done full contact anything. As far as he is concerned, the fight ends after the first hit. His techniques are first rate -for the rules he uses them in. For other rules, some details has to be tweaked.
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Yeah they would have to be adjusted just like machida did from his point fighting days. The combinations still look effective to me though.
With that crisp technique, no question it would be effective!
There's an offshoot of San Shu that bases all it's defensive stances and recovery from striking extension on bracing for take down shoots. I picked a guy's brain on line some years back about the subtitles and he said it's in the way they lower their center mass, solidify their stances and distance drills.
Any good authentic lineage point fighting style can develop a great TDD and full contact application.
MMA is now full of its success in at least the top 10%.
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That sounds cool. I don't know much about San Shou/san shu but it looks effective to me. They know alot more about getting and defending takedowns with kicks involved. So far from point fighting I like Michael Venom Page and Wonderboy. Alot of people just talk about the knockouts but what I think is great from point fighing is they help you learn how to hit without getting hit. Getting points from strikes is important in mma.
Sry, San Shou.
I was watching Chinzo Machida KO Jamar Okampo with the classic one hit straight right from point sparring. There was a straight right and right RHK maybe 15 seconds before that stunned Jamar, but the finish was textbook point sparring. And that's after Chinzo had spent most of the fight pinned against the cage or on his back even getting mounted at least once!
There was a theory behind point fighting and only takes some training to bring it right back to KO application.
Just found the summery of the convo with the San Shou offshoot competitor I mentioned. I've trained high level striking and standing grappling but never as a complete art which is why I was so interested in Alex's perspective. I hope this isn't to long I just copied and pasted.
"My Jhong Law Horn (Mizong Luohan) was a fascinating art from my perspective, when I started in December of 1993. At that time I only new of boxing and kickboxing (without grappling). One of the most fascinating things to me, was my first lesson in just doing a simple straight punch. To the untrained eye, the strait punch would look like just another straight punch. The purpose of the mechanics that we used was for throwing hard punches in rapid succession, while also being in good defensive position. The defensive aspect of the punching placed primary emphasis on defense from tackles and throws. I had never heard that I idea before; boxers worry about getting punched after they throw a punch. The main stream martial arts world of America had zero concept of striking verses wrestling/grappling/judo. Striking was not as dynamics as it is with today's sprawl and brawl MMA competitors of 2013. And it is so true, from my experience, that the game plan, timing and body mechanics for striking against someone trying to tackle you is a whole different thing that striking in a strikes only match (boxing, American kick boxing, point fighting)"
