150,000 BJJ black belts Globally?

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

This makes the most sense here. Most are registered because it's bitch if you aren't to do anything with it.
You can't continue to get degrees, you can't really prmote and your team will have issues competing.

Im not IBJJF registered, and Im due for 2nd dan this year.
There are zero issues competing.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Very interesting, thank you. Of the ~20% that compete regularly, if most aren't registered with IBJJF, are they doing alternative rulesets like ADCC, sub only, etc. or primarily BJJ in orgs other than IBJJF?

All of the above, including IBJJF

 

[ChickenBrother]

All of the above, including IBJJF

This is surprising... and interesting. In the U.S., my strong impression is you need to be registered with and compete in IBJJF to compete against the best guys, certainly at BB. Scrubs such as myself compete in local and regional orgs but none of those hold national or higher level tournaments. Does your region and other areas you've trained have competing BJJ orgs that are considered on par with IBJJF?

 

[maximus__]

Im not IBJJF registered, and Im due for 2nd dan this year.
There are zero issues competing.

Do you compete in IBJJF competitions or promote people who have issues competing?

Anyone you promote won't be recognised as a black belt at IBJJF from my understanding and will have to sandbag it at brown. I personally think it's stupid, but my background is predominantly no gi and grappling with no belts.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

This is surprising... and interesting. In the U.S., my strong impression is you need to be registered with and compete in IBJJF to compete against the best guys, certainly at BB. Scrubs such as myself compete in local and regional orgs but none of those hold national or higher level tournaments. Does your region and other areas you've trained have competing BJJ orgs that are considered on par with IBJJF?

Not only my region, but the whole of Asia, EU and Latin America, there are ways to register to IBJJF competition, even if not registered personally.

And yes, there are many international and local events worldwide, outside of IBJJF.

Take a look at Smoothcomp calendar for 2024.

In 2022 I put 7 events in one year (under my brand: Black Sea Jiujitsu)

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Do you compete in IBJJF competitions or promote people who have issues competing?

Anyone you promote won't be recognised as a black belt at IBJJF from my understanding and will have to sandbag it at brown. I personally think it's stupid, but my background is predominantly no gi and grappling with no belts.

I dont compete anymore and have no plans to have anything with IBJJF.

I don't give a fuck if my black belt is recognised by a private company, that has zero authority over entirety of Jiujitsu.

I organise a few events per year now, mainly wrestling centered and have fun in my gym

Oh, and I dont teach Gi Jiujitsu anymore.

 

[maximus__]

I dont compete anymore and have no plans to have anything with IBJJF.

I don't give a fuck if my black belt is recognised by a private company, that has zero authority over entirety of Jiujitsu.

I organise a few events per year now, mainly wrestling centered and have fun in my gym

Oh, and I dont teach Gi Jiujitsu anymore.

That makes more sense then. It's only an issue for instructors competing or with competitors in IBJJF.

They won't recognise someone as a black belt if the coach isn't 2nd degree. So athletes would get stuck in belt purgatory. People used to get around it with BJJ globetrotters and different affiliations.

If you aren't competing in Gi jj it's a non issue for you. It might cause issues for your students, but who cares to be honest and I am sure you could just work around it with your own coach who might be registered.

 

[Van Daz]

Article claims an estimated 150,000 BJJ blackbelts globally.

How Many BJJ Black Belts Are There Worldwide? - Grappler HQ

If you’re a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) enthusiast, you may have wondered how many black belts there...

www.grapplerhq.com

This seems large number, but the art has gained popularity in recent decades outside of Brazil.

He pulled the number out of his 20th dan black hat....

or a simple case of using Tito math....

 

[TheMaster]

I agree streamlining the belt structure would have a lot of positives. Frankly the main point of a BB is to signify someone qualified to run his own gym and to promote other instructors. I don't see colored belts ever going away due to tradition, fees and marketing benefits, but all of that does unfortunately lead to a fair amount of one-upmanship and dick-measuring behavior.

Let's face it though, even if the number is not that high (say its closer to 50,000 or less), it  will reach that number within probably 5 years or so. BJJ is subject to the McDojo effect as much as any other art especially when you have vast numbers of unlicensed gyms, promotions for attendance and even online belt promotions and the popularity of MMA and people wanting to get cred and make money off of it.
You could have plenty of purple belt level guys who don't compete and their coach promotes so they can open a gym and make income, then they can teach classes and use the vast array of online materials to give nuanced instruction from real top level practicioners.

As to the idea of getting rid of coloured belts, it's just silly. They give people a sense of progression and where they are at, as well as having a structured syllabus they can move through. My understanding is the vast majority drop out at whitebelt, then the second majority drop out a blue belt etc. Many people only want the fundamentals so giving them recognition of it at blue is fine.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

That makes more sense then. It's only an issue for instructors competing or with competitors in IBJJF.

They won't recognise someone as a black belt if the coach isn't 2nd degree. So athletes would get stuck in belt purgatory. People used to get around it with BJJ globetrotters and different affiliations.

If you aren't competing in Gi jj it's a non issue for you. It might cause issues for your students, but who cares to be honest and I am sure you could just work around it with your own coach who might be registered.

Usual deal is, a 2nd dan will vouch for your belt promotions, and you promote through him, till you reach 2nd dan.

IBJJF is big only in USA.

In Brazil, CBJJ makes most of the big events.

In Japan, a local BB started Dumau events, some 20 years ago, and is constantly organising something like 20 events annually and is closely working with SJJIF.
IBJJF holds just a few events per year.
Nationals are organised by JBJJF.
No IBJJF registration required.

EU has plenty of BBs, but considering the VERY low numbers of IBJJF registered athletes, they indeed allow non-registered athletes to compete in the few events they do every year.
At the same time, every week there are at least 10 Jiujitsu events in EU, ran by local organisers.

Mexico is similar to EU.
As a matter of fact, for the 2 years I lived in Mexico, I didnt witness even 1 IBJJF event.

So yeah, we are fine without IBJJF certificates.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

As for the belt system:

Currently Judo has 2 belt systems, the IJF one (color belts) and Kodokan one (black and white belt only).

Been used to Kodokan system, now the color belt system makes very little sense to me.

Kodokan system is purely based on competition results.
You must win certain amount of matches, to reach next dan.
Once you reach it, you only play against the same dan or higher, in competitions, to win the required points for the next dan grading.

IJF system uses specific techniques, required for each belt.
People get promoted by just performing kata and demonstrating their knowledge of the techniques.
No competition required.

Gi Jiujitsu is a lot like IJF belt system.

We are slowly approaching the point, where belt system in Jiujitsu must be changed.

There are plenty of gyms, where only No Gi is trained, and those athletes essentially don't have a way to get promoted.

In my opinion, Gi and No Gi must be separated sports (like Judo and Wrestling), with a different grading system.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Let's face it though, even if the number is not that high (say its closer to 50,000 or less), it  will reach that number within probably 5 years or so. BJJ is subject to the McDojo effect as much as any other art especially when you have vast numbers of unlicensed gyms, promotions for attendance and even online belt promotions and the popularity of MMA and people wanting to get cred and make money off of it.
You could have plenty of purple belt level guys who don't compete and their coach promotes so they can open a gym and make income, then they can teach classes and use the vast array of online materials to give nuanced instruction from real top level practicioners.

As to the idea of getting rid of coloured belts, it's just silly. They give people a sense of progression and where they are at, as well as having a structured syllabus they can move through. My understanding is the vast majority drop out at whitebelt, then the second majority drop out a blue belt etc. Many people only want the fundamentals so giving them recognition of it at blue is fine.

My biggest issue with the BJJ belt system is they're tied to separate competition divisions, which drives the bullshido mysticism around each belt. Folks think a belt promotion is a video game level up because competition rules says it is.

To their credit, BJJ and primarily the Gracies have done an admirable job marketing their art and talking up the significance of each belt rank all of which also feeds their bottom line.

I will say I'm surprised and impressed at the generally high level that has been maintained for each belt over the years. While the base culture seems to bring a lot of informality and sometimes "unregulated" actions, it's also prideful and macho and no gym wants to be known as the one that promotes shitty blue belts, let alone BBs. Rener's online blue belt gimmick was quickly shot down by members of his own extended family.

 

[Quebec Nick]

Let's face it though, even if the number is not that high (say its closer to 50,000 or less), it  will reach that number within probably 5 years or so. BJJ is subject to the McDojo effect as much as any other art especially when you have vast numbers of unlicensed gyms, promotions for attendance and even online belt promotions and the popularity of MMA and people wanting to get cred and make money off of it.
You could have plenty of purple belt level guys who don't compete and their coach promotes so they can open a gym and make income, then they can teach classes and use the vast array of online materials to give nuanced instruction from real top level practicioners.

As to the idea of getting rid of coloured belts, it's just silly. They give people a sense of progression and where they are at, as well as having a structured syllabus they can move through. My understanding is the vast majority drop out at whitebelt, then the second majority drop out a blue belt etc. Many people only want the fundamentals so giving them recognition of it at blue is fine.

The great equalizer in BJJ is that you can beat somebody's ass without injuring him. You can't go hard in kickboxing, judo or wrestling against people that you didn't know that they were shit.

What I mean by that is that you can go in a room, roll with 5 different people and know what that gym worth, you will not have started WW3, nobody will have a concussion from it, it's not a big deal just a 5 or 6 minutes ass whooping and everybody goes their separate ways.

In my area, I know that I'm at the gym who rolls the more rounds each classes and that the coach doesn't give out belts. But on the other hand we have no curriculum, the coach teaches us stuff that he's currently working on and it's all about fun techniques and everybody is doing their own shit. I'm a purple belt and I coach one class a week where I teach anything I want.

At the end of the day, our blue belts will match well in any comp, same thing for the purple belts. Our white belts need a lot of will to stay in the gym, they don't have the strongest fundamentals. But if they stay a couple of months, they will have rolled a lot and they will have touched a lot of technics and positions.

 

[TheMaster]

I will say I'm surprised and impressed at the generally high level that has been maintained for each belt over the years. While the base culture seems to bring a lot of informality and sometimes "unregulated" actions, it's also prideful and macho and no gym wants to be known as the one that promotes shitty blue belts, let alone BBs. Rener's online blue belt gimmick was quickly shot down by members of his own extended family.

This is cool and yes, I agree that nobody would want to be that school. Having said that, they need to essentially keep each other in check to make sure standards stay high and I don't see rhat happening without any central regulating body.

The great equalizer in BJJ is that you can beat somebody's ass without injuring him. You can't go hard in kickboxing, judo or wrestling against people that you didn't know that they were shit.

What I mean by that is that you can go in a room, roll with 5 different people and know what that gym worth, you will not have started WW3, nobody will have a concussion from it, it's not a big deal just a 5 or 6 minutes ass whooping and everybody goes their separate ways.

In my area, I know that I'm at the gym who rolls the more rounds each classes and that the coach doesn't give out belts. But on the other hand we have no curriculum, the coach teaches us stuff that he's currently working on and it's all about fun techniques and everybody is doing their own shit. I'm a purple belt and I coach one class a week where I teach anything I want.

At the end of the day, our blue belts will match well in any comp, same thing for the purple belts. Our white belts need a lot of will to stay in the gym, they don't have the strongest fundamentals. But if they stay a couple of months, they will have rolled a lot and they will have touched a lot of technics and positions.

I get that, I just think you are being naive. When something becomes big business and money is involved standards go down. Just think about it, with so many schools popping up in every city and town now and people wanting to learn the mysterious BJJ, schools will be in direct competition with each other.

Why would a noob prospective student go train with a purple belt when next door school has a blackbelt teaching for the same price? Easy solution, promote your resident purple to brown in rapid order and then black faster and draw the students in. To think this isn't happening and will only continue to happen more and more is just ignoring the reality. Also like I said for teaching purposes there is now world class instruction available at your fingertips all the time. BJJ is becoming a victim of its own success and the popularity of MMA and I wouldn't be surprised if in 10 years a blackbelt means very little unless it can be verified with a legit lineage or regulating org, the problem is going to get worse. You are seeing first hand what happened to Karate back in the day before we got to the point of swarms of mall dojos.

 

[ChickenBrother]

As for the belt system:

Currently Judo has 2 belt systems, the IJF one (color belts) and Kodokan one (black and white belt only).

Been used to Kodokan system, now the color belt system makes very little sense to me.

Kodokan system is purely based on competition results.
You must win certain amount of matches, to reach next dan.
Once you reach it, you only play against the same dan or higher, in competitions, to win the required points for the next dan grading.

IJF system uses specific techniques, required for each belt.
People get promoted by just performing kata and demonstrating their knowledge of the techniques.
No competition required.

Gi Jiujitsu is a lot like IJF belt system.

We are slowly approaching the point, where belt system in Jiujitsu must be changed.

There are plenty of gyms, where only No Gi is trained, and those athletes essentially don't have a way to get promoted.

In my opinion, Gi and No Gi must be separated sports (like Judo and Wrestling), with a different grading system.

I'd only add that as a guy who came up under IJF in the 90's, there used to be two tracks for promotion - competition and non-competition. Competitors accelerated their belt promotions with competition wins and in general you needed about 10 wins over current or higher rank + minimum time in grade + passed skills testing and vote of confidence from your coach to get next colored belt. Assuming you were an average competitor, this meant you got promoted about twice as fast and could achieve shodan in 4-5 years assuming you were training and competing very regularly. Hobbyists who didn't complete could expect shodan in 8-10 years assuming they did an equal amount of training. But competing was always very highly encouraged.

I understand standards for shodan varies across regions but from what I've seen, it's generally pretty high in the U.S. and the UK. It used to be 10 competition wins required at the BB level + perform and pass nage no kata at U.S. senior nationals. And I've heard standard times in grade are even higher now, likely driven by not wanting to be outdone by BB standards in BJJ.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

You can't go hard in kickboxing, judo or wrestling against people that you didn't know that they were shit.

You dont need to.

Ive used kickboxing to block and evade attacks, Judo to trip people on their ass/knees (instead of high amplitude, 180° midair rotation, with landing on their neck), and wrestling to just hold them pinned on a wall.

 

[maximus__]

Usual deal is, a 2nd dan will vouch for your belt promotions, and you promote through him, till you reach 2nd dan.

IBJJF is big only in USA.

In Brazil, CBJJ makes most of the big events.

In Japan, a local BB started Dumau events, some 20 years ago, and is constantly organising something like 20 events annually and is closely working with SJJIF.
IBJJF holds just a few events per year.
Nationals are organised by JBJJF.
No IBJJF registration required.

EU has plenty of BBs, but considering the VERY low numbers of IBJJF registered athletes, they indeed allow non-registered athletes to compete in the few events they do every year.
At the same time, every week there are at least 10 Jiujitsu events in EU, ran by local organisers.

Mexico is similar to EU.
As a matter of fact, for the 2 years I lived in Mexico, I didnt witness even 1 IBJJF event.

So yeah, we are fine without IBJJF certificates.

I am in Australia IBJJF is pretty big over here also.

Sounds similar in terms of other belts managing promotion, but that's a bit annoying for your students to have you rely on specific people to come out promote them.

In the end it only matters if all that is important to them.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Highly doubt one in every 6,500 people is a black belt

I don't think you'd even get that for brown belt. Maybe purple at a push but even then I'm not sure.

 

[Quebec Nick]

You dont need to.

Ive used kickboxing to block and evade attacks, Judo to trip people on their ass/knees (instead of high amplitude, 180° midair rotation, with landing on their neck), and wrestling to just hold them pinned on a wall.

I was talking about going full throttle

In BJJ, if you respect the tap, and you're not too dumb and tap late. You can roll at almost full intensity without anybody getting injured

When people roll together they can go almost all out and see who's the best

You can't really do that in boxing, throwing people or even wrestling. You keep that to competition and rare competition training. You won't go to the gym the other side of town on saturday morning to see what's up and start to throw your A game of spinning back kicks. You will spar lightly

In BJJ, you just have to tone down the intensity of some submissions, but the gap between training and competition is way smaller than in other combat sports

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I was talking about going full throttle

In BJJ, if you respect the tap, and you're not too dumb and tap late. You can roll at almost full intensity without anybody getting injured

When people roll together they can go almost all out and see who's the best

You can't really do that in boxing, throwing people or even wrestling. You keep that to competition and rare competition training. You won't go to the gym the other side of town on saturday morning to see what's up and start to throw your A game of spinning back kicks. You will spar lightly

In BJJ, you just have to tone down the intensity of some submissions, but the gap between training and competition is way smaller than in other combat sports

Maybe the gyms you've seen don't, but wrestling is practiced at full speed all the time.

Muay Thai is trained at full speed in Thailand.

Kyoukushin is practiced at full speed everywhere Ive been.

Judo is trained at full speed in competitive dojos.

Jiujitsu is not special in that aspect. As a matter of fact, Id say, Jiujitsu is the sport, Ive seen been constantly played at slow mo, by the vast majority of practitioners worldwide, by choice.