Zhan zhuang / Yiquan / Taikiken

Hotora86

war in the ring, never outside
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I've recently started Zhan zhuang.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhan_zhuang
Zhàn zhuāng, literally: "standing like a post", is a training method often practiced by students of neijia (internal kung fu), such as Yiquan, Xing Yi Quan, Bagua Zhang and Taiji Quan. Zhan Zhuang is sometimes translated Standing-on-stake, Standing Qigong, Standing Like a Tree, Post-standing, Pile-standing, or Pylon Standing. It is commonly called a form of Qigong, despite the differences from other Qigong methods in Zhan zhuang's orientation.

I have found it to be much harder than "standing still" sounds at first glance. Longer sessions can tire the muscles quite a bit and paired with deep breathing it sometimes makes me dizzy. But I must say that I am enjoying it - I feel calm during practice and pleasantly invigorated right after. I have found it to be beneficial both pre- and post-training. I think you can pretty much do it on your own, once you get the basics down.

An interesting aspect that I want to discuss further:

"Wang, a student of Xing Yi Quan, created a method of Kung Fu-based entirely upon Zhan zhuang, known as Yiquan, "Intent Fist." Yiquan's method of study is Zhan zhuang plus movements that continue the feeling of the Standing Post in action."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiquan
Yi Quan, "Yi" meaning Intent, (but not intention), "Quan" meaning boxing. (...) Yiquan is essentially formless, containing no fixed sets of fighting movements or techniques. Instead, focus is put on developing one's natural movement and fighting abilities through a system of training methods and concepts, working to improve the perception of one's body, its movement, and of force.

Yiquan is closely related to Taikiken (or Ikken) which is often practiced as a complimentary art by Kyokushin Karateka.

http://the-martial-way.com/history-of-taikiken-in-kyokushin-karate/
Taikiken is a Japanese martial art, greatly inspired by Yi Quan (or dachengquan), a Chinese system of martial arts. Taikiken was founded by the Japanese Kenichi Sawai (1903-1988) after losing to Chinese Wang Xiangzhai (1885-1963) – the founder of Yi Quan. Impressed by the technique of Wang Xiangzhai, Kenichi Sawai learned Yi Quan with his student Yao Zongxun and then with the master himself, Wang Xiangzhai.

http://www.kyokushinkan.org/en/?page_id=235
Ikken is a parallel, Chinese martial art heavily stressed by Kancho Royama and other instructors during Kyokushin-kan seminars. It is the name currently used for an martial art Sosai Mas Oyama practiced, Taikiken, and incorporated into his synthesis of Kyokushin. At its core is the training of Ki (or Chi in Chinese) energy. Westerners who’ve never seen Ikken might think it similar to Tai Chi, although it is very self-defense oriented (one might say fight-oriented) in that the goal is to learn destructive (and therefore defensive) physical power that transcends the normal sources that we tend to think of when looking for power (i.e. our muscular-skeletal system).

Very interested to hear opinions on Zhan Zhuang / Yiquan / Ikken from our Kyokushin (and other Karate) representatives - @shinkyoku, @Azam, @AshiharaFan? @Jukai, @Tayski, @Jimmy Jazz, @Ryukyu Damashi ?
Any Kung Fu / Qigong experts here?

Have you tried it? Did you like it? Did it have any effect on you?

Thanks.
 
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I did quite a bit of standing practice when I was really into Tai Chi and Ba Gua. I found it beneficial, mostly as meditation but some martial benefit as it makes you very, very aware of your own internal structure. I don't think there's anything mystical about it whatsoever, it's just a method for getting good at making internal connections and teaching yourself to relax and not hold unnecessary tension. Not very different from yoga, actually.
 
Excellent article on the benefits of Zhan Zhuang from a Western point of view:
http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-zz.html

TL/DR: It develops postural (tonic) muscles which are essential for balance (both standing and moving).
 
The traditional martial arts blogger, Dan Djurdjevic, who is probably my go to source when it comes to anything to do with traditional martial arts has written a nice article about it. You can find it here, if you're interested.

His blog is super interesting - he talks a lot about what he thinks the differences are between "civilian defense arts" and sporting martial arts. I don't think I'd trust everything he has to say, especially when he's comparing karate punches with boxing punches, but the man knows a lot, and has a legit martial arts lineage, including tai chi, xingyiquan and ba gua.
 
Sounds like primary school punishment when you talked in class and they made you wait outside
 
Sounds like primary school punishment when you talked in class and they made you wait outside
See, you missed the point completely. They were trying to train your "qi", make you a martial artist and you just stood and waited like a dumbass. :p
 
The original karate style I learnt before picking up pure kyokushin was a mixture of goju/kk/yiquan - seems like a long time ago. I was in my teens back then so it was a while back but I've still retained some of the yiquan/karate instruction I got.

So when I started training pure kyokushin I had the benefit of having a little yiquan instruction under my belt. The fact that I still make a lot of use of yiquan in training/sparring to me speaks volumes on the art itself.

I don't think it's as good as a standalone art. I think where styles like yiquan/taikiken excel is when they are used to complement styles you already practice.

The biggest benefit in my experience has been in my footwork/parrying. Personally I feel like Yiquan is a martial arts style that's all about receptiveness and that's what the training focus is. I think though the style suffers with instruction - talking simply I feel like a lot of instructors in the style teach fighting technique but are unable to fight themselves properly.

I think Yiquan is most effectively learnt when it's taught by someone who has MT, Karate, Sanda or any other legit martial arts experience. I think there is a lot of BS in most chinese martial arts where many that teach can't actually use what they teach to defend themselves.
 
See, you missed the point completely. They were trying to train your "qi", make you a martial artist and you just stood and waited like a dumbass. :p
Well they should've told me I was in Yellow Bamboo 101
 
Practicing a short Tai Chi form right now 4 months post op and integrated Qigong into my PT a week into it.

The benefits are undeniable, but only complementary to more intense training.

I always post the challenge to doubter's stand in a low horse stance with your arms out horizontal to the floor palms down and hold for 5 minutes. While doing that focus on your breathing empty your mind of any thought without force.

Of course no one can get past the first 2 minutes of the physical part let alone have the trained discipline to start the meditation.

People say it's a waste of time, but obviously you're building a relaxed strength that is directly applied to your active endurance and training your mind to maintain an even state that will stay with you under extreme physical stress.

I haven't resumed the 10 posture regiment, but I've had to focus on medical recovery to let my skeletal structure heal.

Yet again intense training is mandatory, but the these meditative disciplines are great for down time healing and unnecessary energy waste.
 
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I know very little of Taikiken except that Sosai Oyama learned it and recommended that his students also learn it as an adjunct to their Kyokushin training.

I suspect that Ikken techniques are what's demonstrated in Sosai Oyama's books when they go into Chinese Kempo.

The first style I ever trained when I was a kid was Okinawan Kempo and I recall my Sensei claiming that it was quite similar to the Chinese Kempo that Sosai was fond of. I don't know if that is true or not. I just remember that we practiced kata found in almost all of the Okinawan Karate styles (Shorin ryu, Isshin ryu, Goju ryu, etc.).
 
I know very little of Taikiken except that Sosai Oyama learned it and recommended that his students also learn it as an adjunct to their Kyokushin training.

I suspect that Ikken techniques are what's demonstrated in Sosai Oyama's books when they go into Chinese Kempo.

The first style I ever trained when I was a kid was Okinawan Kempo and I recall my Sensei claiming that it was quite similar to the Chinese Kempo that Sosai was fond of. I don't know if that is true or not. I just remember that we practiced kata found in almost all of the Okinawan Karate styles (Shorin ryu, Isshin ryu, Goju ryu, etc.).

I don't know where but I've read that Mas Oyama dabbled in Chinese kempo of some sort. I'm not sure if it's true though because there's no evidence that he did - apart from his interaction with Kenichi Sawai.

I think it's a combination of Ikken and Goju breathing techniques as I've seen some of his breathing technique in Japanese Goju.

I'm not particularly fond of the breathing techniques in Kyokushin tbh. I think it would be great if an instructor could incorporate yoga breathing techniques or internal chinese arts into KK. A bit like how Rickson has incorporated yoga into how he personally teaches.

I never use to think breathing techniques were that important when I first started but now I think otherwise.
 
I'm not particularly fond of the breathing techniques in Kyokushin tbh.

Not only am I not particularly fond of them I basically loathe them. The Shihan at my dojo makes us do the Ibuki breathing against our will. I can't stand it.

I never use to think breathing techniques were that important when I first started but now I think otherwise.

I DO think breathing techniques are very essential but I also believe that some breathing techniques are based on sound experiences while others are based on nothing except tradition and not wanting to do other than what the "masters" have done.
 
I never use to think breathing techniques were that important when I first started but now I think otherwise.

Its realy a saver when you're competing and you have 1min to recover.

I used to think it was all bs and smoking air, but hey it really works. You can recover about 70% of your tank if you do it right.
 
Not only am I not particularly fond of them I basically loathe them. The Shihan at my dojo makes us do the Ibuki breathing against our will. I can't stand it.

I DO think breathing techniques are very essential but I also believe that some breathing techniques are based on sound experiences while others are based on nothing except tradition and not wanting to do other than what the "masters" have done.

Yeah I definitely agree - you get a lot of breathing techniques in karate that are just basically nonsense or just for the sound.

Most of the breathing techniques I use are from kundalini yoga. You ever tried it? I highly recommend some of their breathing techniques - it feels dizzying at first but I noticed that after doing it regularly it has made an impact on my alertness over time especially when tiring. I know it's a big thing in some bjj/karate circles.

Hell just breathing in from your nose and out from your mouth makes a huge difference to your cardiac output. After cycling regularly nowadays I've made more of a conscious effort to do that and it's made a big difference in how long I'm lasting in sparring compared to before.
 
Yeah I definitely agree - you get a lot of breathing techniques in karate that are just basically nonsense or just for the sound.
But its exotic bud.

Hell just breathing in from your nose and out from your mouth makes a huge difference to your cardiac output. After cycling regularly nowadays I've made more of a conscious effort to do that and it's made a big difference in how long I'm lasting in sparring compared to before.
Joking aside, combat sports, from the western aspect don't really get the crdit they put out, but there's breathing technique and quite a bit of TMA stuff involved, but it doesn't get the credit.

At the end of the day its fighting, and we're all human, so we're gonna use what works regardless of culture. We got 2 arms and 2 legs, there's only so much you can do before you run out of ideas. Just kinda an odd thing I've noticed over the years of training.

Old school boxing has alot in common with wing chun and karate, but folks don't give either side the credit.

Its as if like breathing technique is a foreign concept only available to people on the other side of the planet.
hell, I didn't get any tutorial on slowing my breathing down prior to training, and I only did it because I kinda got a high off it. lol. Nothing to do with tradition and logic, I just wanted to feel gud
 
Its realy a saver when you're competing and you have 1min to recover.

I used to think it was all bs and smoking air, but hey it really works. You can recover about 70% of your tank if you do it right.

And this is the issue that I was addressing earlier. I agree that it can be a life saver but only if it's done right. There is some "ancient mystical wisdom" out there that does more harm than good.

As I said earlier I know very little (well, basically I know NOTHING) about Ikken so I have no idea what breathing techniques are used in that system. It would be nice to know exactly where Sosai Oyama got the Ibuki and Nogare breathing techniques from. I also know very, very little about Kung Fu and the Chinese systems so I basically have no sound knowledge to work with. One thing that I DEFINITELY want to do is learn Tai Chi Ch'uan and maybe even Tai Chi Sword (not for fighting of course).

@Hotora86 as a Japanese Karate practitioner with a newfound interest in the Chinese systems I would like to draw your attention to Shihan Takumi Higashidani and his Karate style called Shinbudo Karate. Along with Goju Ryu, Kyokushin and Ashihara Karate he also holds rank in (and includes in his style) Tai-Chi Chen style (Taiwan form), Tai-Chi- 99 Form, Bagua Zhang and Xing Yi Chuan. He also trained Okinawan Kobudo weapons. Looking at video clips of him demonstrating his Shinbudo Karate style you can see plenty of evidence of not only Sabaki movements (from Ashihara Karate) but also the heavy Chinese influences as well. If it was available to me I would definitely train it. It just looks fascinating and interesting to me. Too bad it's only available in Denmark and Singapore.
 
And this is the issue that I was addressing earlier. I agree that it can be a life saver but only if it's done right. There is some "ancient mystical wisdom" out there that does more harm than good.

As I said earlier I know very little (well, basically I know NOTHING) about Ikken so I have no idea what breathing techniques are used in that system. It would be nice to know exactly where Sosai Oyama got the Ibuki and Nogare breathing techniques from. I also know very, very little about Kung Fu and the Chinese systems so I basically have no sound knowledge to work with. One thing that I DEFINITELY want to do is learn Tai Chi Ch'uan and maybe even Tai Chi Sword (not for fighting of course).

@Hotora86 as a Japanese Karate practitioner with a newfound interest in the Chinese systems I would like to draw your attention to Shihan Takumi Higashidani and his Karate style called Shinbudo Karate. Along with Goju Ryu, Kyokushin and Ashihara Karate he also holds rank in (and includes in his style) Tai-Chi Chen style (Taiwan form), Tai-Chi- 99 Form, Bagua Zhang and Xing Yi Chuan. He also trained Okinawan Kobudo weapons. Looking at video clips of him demonstrating his Shinbudo Karate style you can see plenty of evidence of not only Sabaki movements (from Ashihara Karate) but also the heavy Chinese influences as well. If it was available to me I would definitely train it. It just looks fascinating and interesting to me. Too bad it's only available in Denmark and Singapore.
Looks very nice, thank you. I always liked hybrid Karate styles (Wado, Shidokan, Kudo etc.) since I think that borrowing from other systems and embracing change was always in the spirit of Karate. Myself having trained in a very traditional Shotokan dojo I would seek out knowledge elsewhere and "mix in" everything I could get my hands on - and surprisingly (to me then) my Karate improved with every new art I explored. The amalgam of skills which I have gathered would definitely not be called "shotokan" by a purist but I consider it very much still "karate" in the most essential sense.

I now believe that clinging to "styles" as something built to last and unshakable is a huge mistake which causes the art to degenerate and fail in the long run. It is especially peculiar to me that it is the "eastern" arts who have fallen into this trap, while one of the most famous and popular eastern philosophers, Lao-Tzu, has pointed out this pitfall millenia ago:

A man is born gentle and weak; at his death he is hard and stiff. All things, including the grass and trees, are soft and pliable in life; dry and brittle in death. Stiffness is thus a companion of death; flexibility a companion of life. An army that cannot yield will be defeated. A tree that cannot bend will crack in the wind. The hard and stiff will be broken; the soft and supple will prevail.

As for mixing Japanese and Chinese fighting systems - I see strong parallels with art and culture. These two nations have always been influencing one another, blending together and building upon one another. This is especially true for Karate in my opinion, which sprouted and developed in the melting pot which is Okinawa, being strongly influenced by both Chinese and Japanese traditions, with South Asian flavors mixed in. It is thus completely natural to be interested in both, since they compliment each other, even when seemingly in opposition.
 
Looks very nice, thank you. I always liked hybrid Karate styles (Wado, Shidokan, Kudo etc.) since I think that borrowing from other systems and embracing change was always in the spirit of Karate. Myself having trained in a very traditional Shotokan dojo I would seek out knowledge elsewhere and "mix in" everything I could get my hands on - and surprisingly (to me then) my Karate improved with every new art I explored. The amalgam of skills which I have gathered would definitely not be called "shotokan" by a purist but I consider it very much still "karate" in the most essential sense.

I now believe that clinging to "styles" as something built to last and unshakable is a huge mistake which causes the art to degenerate and fail in the long run. It is especially peculiar to me that it is the "eastern" arts who have fallen into this trap, while one of the most famous and popular eastern philosophers, Lao-Tzu, has pointed out this pitfall millenia ago:



As for mixing Japanese and Chinese fighting systems - I see strong parallels with art and culture. These two nations have always been influencing one another, blending together and building upon one another. This is especially true for Karate in my opinion, which sprouted and developed in the melting pot which is Okinawa, being strongly influenced by both Chinese and Japanese traditions, with South Asian flavors mixed in. It is thus completely natural to be interested in both, since they compliment each other, even when seemingly in opposition.
I essentially agree but at the same time when some arts come into contact with other arts they sometimes lose what makes them special. For example, when you look at japanese goju ryu, alot of what I've seen is basically shotokan. They don't fight close range or out of a cat stance like they used to. Also sometimes techniques get forgotten, which is unfortunate. Hopefully now that we have the net and video this won't happen as much.
 
Joking aside, combat sports, from the western aspect don't really get the crdit they put out, but there's breathing technique and quite a bit of TMA stuff involved, but it doesn't get the credit.

At the end of the day its fighting, and we're all human, so we're gonna use what works regardless of culture. We got 2 arms and 2 legs, there's only so much you can do before you run out of ideas. Just kinda an odd thing I've noticed over the years of training.

Old school boxing has alot in common with wing chun and karate, but folks don't give either side the credit.

Its as if like breathing technique is a foreign concept only available to people on the other side of the planet.
hell, I didn't get any tutorial on slowing my breathing down prior to training, and I only did it because I kinda got a high off it. lol. Nothing to do with tradition and logic, I just wanted to feel gud

I agree - western martial arts don't really get the level of credit or fanaticism that martial arts in Asia get. I think though that's because of mysticism, exoticism and the attraction of foreign cultures - more so than Asian martial arts being in any way more unique.

I've always maintained that striking wise old school boxing and karate have huge similarities after looking into it more. It's interesting since they pretty much developed in different areas of the world and for the most part developed without any interaction.

In regards to breathing technique - I don't think it's unique to any culture. But I do think in regards to breathing technique the other side of the planet has more extensive experience/research and much more info/techniques on it. I mean can you think of something similar to Yoga or Tai'chi for example here in the western hemisphere - that's been practiced for as long as those two have? Most of our breathing techniques in this part of the world are pretty much derived as a result of modern sports/medicine.

Sure we can incidentally stumble on things like slowing down breathing & getting high of it - other things like triangle pose in yoga is significantly harder to stumble into.
 
I agree - western martial arts don't really get the level of credit or fanaticism that martial arts in Asia get. I think though that's because of mysticism, exoticism and the attraction of foreign cultures - more so than Asian martial arts being in any way more unique.

I've always maintained that striking wise old school boxing and karate have huge similarities after looking into it more. It's interesting since they pretty much developed in different areas of the world and for the most part developed without any interaction.

In regards to breathing technique - I don't think it's unique to any culture. But I do think in regards to breathing technique the other side of the planet has more extensive experience/research and much more info/techniques on it. I mean can you think of something similar to Yoga or Tai'chi for example here in the western hemisphere - that's been practiced for as long as those two have? Most of our breathing techniques in this part of the world are pretty much derived as a result of modern sports/medicine.

Sure we can incidentally stumble on things like slowing down breathing & getting high of it - other things like triangle pose in yoga is significantly harder to stumble into.
Its definitely more advanced in Asia compared to the west, but for some reason the idea of breathing techniuqe in western combat sports is surprising to your average layman. Sliwing down your breathing to adjust your heart in between rounds is a breathing technique.

Like you said, it doesn't have the "exoticness" to it, so there's not much gung ho to it.

On the other hand you have your typical just bleed fan shitting on karate, TMAs and dick sucking boxing too hard, but when shown the similarities between the two in stance, distance, concepts, they just lay in denial. Its not rocket science to figure that people who often fought bare knuckle broke and hurt their hands when fighting like they had 10-16s, they'll obviously use methods to prevent that from happening. Also old old school boxing was apparently dirty as fuck, using fish hooking and big on dirty boxing being involved.

Its the same with the creation of arrowheads and spears, no common ancestor, but people globally just figured its inexpensive to put a sharp rock on a stick and go to town at a safe distance.
 
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