Your size vs punching power

[justincrews]

I agreed that there are supplemental exercises that will help increase power, my point is that they aren't the main source of power. While trained physical attributes are important, they aren't the secret to punching power. In other words, exactly what JeetKunDoGuy said.

But again, I'd be really interested in seeing the research you're talking about.

Of course Speed is the one of the main sources of power. I spar with slower big framers myself, they hit hard but its that same feeling of force I feel, more push force since they are heavier, but less damage or result, because I can handle the punch since they are punching too slow.

You don't need any research from me, even though its been mentioned a million times on the internet, however I never take full proof from it. Anyone knows more velocity, acceleration of the shoulder swing and bodyweight will deliver a harder punch plus I know from my tests.

Push force is not damage.

naturally someone who has a smaller frame will be faster than someone who has a big frame, even if they both weighed thesame.

say you can punch 15% faster than someone and accelerate 15% faster because

A) your lighter but built, otherwise no amount of speed can overtake it. Your frame is also naturally faster

B) You would benefit more from speed exercises because the other type will have to sacrifice a few exercises just to catch up to your normal speed , and he will need to stay at that low bodyfat you will be at, since you will be at a low bodyfat and wont need to do as much cardio because naturally ecto types have MORE endurance than they would.

You have no idea how much benefit and potential you actually gain from speed, and I know this because I DID those exercises and they pushed my limits by 100+ on the measurement computer. They are not just* supplemental exercises.
You have to do the right ones, and I don't mean just sprints. They have to focus on rotation speed, swing speed and body acceleration.

 

[justincrews]

Your doing a very bad job of conveying the rational behind your position.


The previous argument was that speed varies to no great amount between weight classes but that weight and ability to recruit that weight does. Acceleration is not important if the maximum speed is reached by both parties of the comparison and that maximum speed is similar or the same.

And your doing a very bad job of not understanding how important speed is. If someone has 15% more speed and has a high weight, he will punch harder than someone who weighs 20% more.

Wrong, thing is, one type is always going to be faster than the other because naturally they are. And naturally one has more endurance than the other. It doesn't matter if both parties have reached their limits, their limits are different.





We've tested that smaller handed 70kg boxers do more damage to our subjects with a hook punch. We also noticed a 70kg built endo type with big hands and more bone density seems to do more push or force with his punch. push weight force doesnt equal damage, and the reason is a small handed person has the advantage because the damage is so focused in the area, its going to bruise alot more and break more bones if at a heavyweight level.
Reason why all heavyweight body types are endo is because everyone is too lazy to train a thin type fighter which takes a few years for them to bulk, no coach is bothered to build a boxer up from 140 pounds up into heavyweight, which is why you dont see them there. And you see them in lightweight because I know so many coaches who cant be bothered and believe its easier for them to stay there when they would have cardio advantage at a higher weight, since naturally that bodytype specializes in endurance. Trainers arent bothered to wait years on bulking and pay extra money on faster metabolism they need to eat more than the other bodytypes to be in a heavyweight.

It costs them more money for food, and they just are too lazy and want the easy way when they can just get a fat persons bodytype and lose the weight, although ironically it doesnt matter how muscular the person is, if his bodytype is endo, he has the fat bodytype and it doesnt matter how fat he is, training 5 days a week and sustaining a 5000-7000 calorie diet (yes, they might eat additional meals to restore the calories they lost) doesnt stop the fact they will still lose weight until they reach welter or lightweight, and that is specifically why
all bodytypes still need to lift weights. Any boxer who doesnt lift weights will NEVER be a heavyweight because overtime he will keep going on a weight loss, no matter how big or how much he eats, the training is too intense.If he decides to do the, only train when a fight comes up routine, he is never going to reach is physical peak unless he busts his ass for years every day for 3-5 days a week. He will NEVER be able to take the hits, taking hits comes from muscles. only and all endos have big frames which mean nothing over the medium and small frame because youve got less speed from the start, you havent got more damage in your punches, its only to do with weight and speed, and they lack speed from the start. onle gets much more dangerous if you have maximum velocity/with your mass, so if someone is lighter by only 30 or more pounds and has more speed, he is going to hit harder than your punches.

Dont dwell on boxers who are outweighed by a milestone and arent built, comparing them to heavyweights, of course they wont take hits, they dont train to take heavyweights.

lightweight boxers are thin, they cant take hits, they dont workout and thicken their muscles like other classes. Lights dont use power shots the way you would for power, they are mostly speed hitters, pure speed is less power because you have to punch a proper hook, not a jab hook that doesn't bend at the elbow. But its about how fast you can punch that slow punch. Not throw a fast hook that looks like a jab and loses all its bodyweight power because they are jabbing and only using pure speed.


Having someone outweigh another person gives a chance he will punch harder, but if the person has more speed than the heavier person, and both a muscle built, not lightweight and one heavweight, the difference of their training and the thickness of their muscles are too big, lightweights mainly train to lose weight, heavyweights train to gain weight. so having a guy who is not in heavyweight, lets say middleweight, he can crush a heavyweight if he is built enough for those hits, and ONLY if he has more speed and a difference of 20-25% in weight (at thesame height, % is higher if height isnt thesame) than the heavyweight, which isnt always likely because it again depends on the frame. but the lighter person is going to win against the heavier person if his punch damage exceeds the weight difference from his heavy shots.

eg. both a built to a good degree to take hard shots, Frame A is the big, frame B is the small frame. Lets assume that 100% speed is the maximum speed frame A can reach without speed exercises, so he wont equal a naturally faster frame (both are equally trained) Lets also assume the speed difference is 10% at MAXIMUM POTENTIAL in a smaller frame, which We have measured is roughly true.


The additional weight makes him 5% slower and frame A is naturally (no training) always 10% faster.


FRAME A (90KG X 100% speed (100% of the speed he punches and accelerates in mph)


FRAME B (70kg X 115% speed (115% of the speed he punches and accelerates in mph)


FRAME B Will punch Harder than Frame A





Through all of the testings, the result was. Size doesnt mean anything if you dont have speed. Get a big guy as big as you can find and if he cant punch fast, his punches will be soft.
And if you dont have size or thick muscles then you should be more worried about absorbing the hits, and not worrying about who punches harder.. because even if Frame B has more speed and punches harder, if he isnt built enough to absorb frame As hits, punching harder wont really help him if he cant last a few rounds.

 

[justincrews]

Gave you the benefit of the doubt but not after this statement.

Believe what you want. This is coming from a boxer/simulator who has tested all of this with thousands of people.
You are still dwelling on the whole lightweight vs heavyweight routine.



Size has nothing to do with density.



Ill bet money on your claim right now if you get a larger framed boxer at 80kg and Ill get another smaller framed boxer at 80kg and we get both guys to do thesame level of training for 6 months, and the same exercises without speed additions. Both do weights to maintain and
both do weighted crunches for abdominals, etc.

You notice one will have trouble lowering his body fat unless he does 1 additional cardio exercise (or more of a % of cardio exercises) while the other can do more mixtures and varitations of power/cardio exercises because he doesn't need to fitten as much.

And your boxers type naturally has less endurance to begin with even via end result mine has more chance to not tire.
My guy will need to go on a higher calorie to keep up though.

The thick built muscles will be enough to absorb your guys punches despite his small bone structure...

Ill bet any money in the world my one will hurt more and will get a higher number on our machine, even though your guy will have more rattling punches.

 

[justincrews]

And the funny thing is, I bet none of you have even tested a small framer in the heavyweight, and only in the middle or lightweight so
before you mention anything or support anything you have to test this first.

.........................

 

[HIMBOB]

I won some pretty cool prizes ($500+ worth) at a boxing event a year or tow ago, won the 70-80kg bracket, 80-90kg bracket and p4p hardest punch. A few hundred people tried the thing and only one HW beat me in hardest punch.

I am 6'2", 74 kg (162 pound) BJJ guy who learned how to punch from a TKD guy.




I was honestly just hoping not to deliver a crappy score as I was 100% sure I had no punching power. I think the best idea is not to try and punch hard, just follow perfect tech, hit accurately and be at full extension.

Was good moment as a heap of my friends were there so I didn't have to brag about to them like I am doing now.

Felt good man.


Oh and I have fairly skinny wrists, 6.5 inches.

 

[HIMBOB]

Further to my last, my best mate is almost double my weight and the same height, he can make a boxing bag swing much further on a punch than I can, yet his highest score was roughly half mine.

 

[a guy]

Of course Speed is the one of the main sources of power. I spar with slower big framers myself, they hit hard but its that same feeling of force I feel, more push force since they are heavier, but less damage or result, because I can handle the punch since they are punching too slow.

You don't need any research from me, even though its been mentioned a million times on the internet, however I never take full proof from it. Anyone knows more velocity, acceleration of the shoulder swing and bodyweight will deliver a harder punch plus I know from my tests.

Push force is not damage.

naturally someone who has a smaller frame will be faster than someone who has a big frame, even if they both weighed thesame.

say you can punch 15% faster than someone and accelerate 15% faster because

A) your lighter but built, otherwise no amount of speed can overtake it. Your frame is also naturally faster

B) You would benefit more from speed exercises because the other type will have to sacrifice a few exercises just to catch up to your normal speed , and he will need to stay at that low bodyfat you will be at, since you will be at a low bodyfat and wont need to do as much cardio because naturally ecto types have MORE endurance than they would.

You have no idea how much benefit and potential you actually gain from speed, and I know this because I DID those exercises and they pushed my limits by 100+ on the measurement computer. They are not just* supplemental exercises.
You have to do the right ones, and I don't mean just sprints. They have to focus on rotation speed, swing speed and body acceleration.

They are absolutely supplemental exercises. The thing about the human body is that it isn't built to be strong in rotational planes. It moves best linearly, and the same muscles and structures are used to create most of the rotation (primarily occurring in the hips and legs) that are used to create linear movement. As a result, the main strength and power exercises (which lead to speed) are done to create force in one linear direction (squats, deadlifts, bench press, shoulder press, pull ups, etc.) rather than rotational. Then, the ability to utilize that musculature and power is created through repetition of perfect technique, which both ensures proper kinetic linking and develops muscle memory to increase speed and efficiency. If there is a specific weakness that needs to be corrected, rotational exercises can be done to address that. However, those exercises are not ideal for developing either maximal power or perfect muscle memory and kinetic linking.

And again, I point to the fact that the study shows that speed does not significantly vary between boxers at the highest level, while effective mass (related to physical size, proper technique and solidity of the structure) is the real difference in power. You have cited no studies and while you claim to have research, you have yet to provide any references or proof. Meanwhile, you continue to provide inconsistent numbers.

For example, you write that speed*mass=power, but then you say that someone who is 15% faster will punch harder than someone who weighs 20% more. That's contradictory, because it implies that speed creates more power than mass when you previously claimed that it produces the same amount. Also, the study proved that most of the power comes from effective mass, not speed and some of the data points in that study actually show fighters of the same weight with the slower one hitting harder.

 

[Phlog]

I heard a study recently that suggested it was the rotational speed of our shoulder that possibly lead to our specific evolution. throwing a spear or rock allowing us to conserve a lot of energy hunting. It showed the human shoulder joint is one of the, if not the fasted joint in the world. Just occurred to me. It was near 9000' per second.

 

[x100handslap**]

I'm wondering where the concept of "I'm bigger than him, I must THEREFORE punch harder" comes from.

I find that technique generates more power than just muscle alone.

My company held a mini carnival, and one of the items was the "Test your punching power" machines. I'm a fairly small guy, 5'9" about 150lbs. I waited in line and, when it was my turn, I got a full score. The guys behind me thought, "If this skinny kid can get a full score, so can I!" and then started to punch. None of them even came close, and they were getting really pissed off. Never mind they have no concept of form, planting the foot, or generation of power from the legs and hips, after about 4 tries each, they walk away red-faced and gave me some "you must of cheated" comment.

I'm sick and tired of this crap. I have no idea why people think just because they are bigger, that they then naturally have the ability to punch hard.

If those guys had the same technique as you do, their scores would probably be much higher.

Wieght is important when it comes to punching power, not as important as speed but its still makes a big difference.

Sheer mass is an assest for pushing people around not being pushed around and genrally crushing people.

Also bigger guys are more likely to be stronger than smaller guys so any form of grappling it is advantages to be the bigger guy, more so than in striking.

Lastly bigger guys have longer reach and more hieght usually, which are difficult problems to deal with.

So yea thats the truth, you probably dont like the truth because you arnt a big guy but thats how it is.

The big guys were miffed because they know deep down they are probably better than you at punching genetically speaking I mean potentially, and so to be out ranked by a smaller guy for a male is very anger invoking.

The biggest guys are not the hardest hitting guys but the hardest hitting guys are always in the heavyweight division so as you can see weight is very important. - Shavers, Foreman, etc not the Valuev Type because they are generally too slow.

On a more positive note smaller guys tend to be faster and more mobile which are great assests too, speed is more important for punching power than weight so maybe if they are very slow and you very fast you punching power can compete, also mobility when you see guys "running" sticking and moving around a slow big powerful guy, people think of the smaller faster guy as the weaker guy because hes "running" but lack of mobility is a severe weakness thats easily exploited.

 

[x100handslap**]

They are absolutely supplemental exercises. The thing about the human body is that it isn't built to be strong in rotational planes. It moves best linearly, and the same muscles and structures are used to create most of the rotation (primarily occurring in the hips and legs) that are used to create linear movement. As a result, the main strength and power exercises (which lead to speed) are done to create force in one linear direction (squats, deadlifts, bench press, shoulder press, pull ups, etc.) rather than rotational. Then, the ability to utilize that musculature and power is created through repetition of perfect technique, which both ensures proper kinetic linking and develops muscle memory to increase speed and efficiency. If there is a specific weakness that needs to be corrected, rotational exercises can be done to address that. However, those exercises are not ideal for developing either maximal power or perfect muscle memory and kinetic linking.

And again, I point to the fact that the study shows that speed does not significantly vary between boxers at the highest level, while effective mass (related to physical size, proper technique and solidity of the structure) is the real difference in power. You have cited no studies and while you claim to have research, you have yet to provide any references or proof. Meanwhile, you continue to provide inconsistent numbers.

For example, you write that speed*mass=power, but then you say that someone who is 15% faster will punch harder than someone who weighs 20% more. That's contradictory, because it implies that speed creates more power than mass when you previously claimed that it produces the same amount. Also, the study proved that most of the power comes from effective mass, not speed and some of the data points in that study actually show fighters of the same weight with the slower one hitting harder.

I like your answer, you have good knowlege levels, Speed is 4 times more important than body weight for the power of a strike from a purely physics stand point (the squared part) but as you noted some slower guys can punch harder than some faster guys and thats due to MANY factors, and no one knows them all, things like how good your technique is, how much weight you transfer, which punching technique you use (there are many differences in boxing style punches alone) how your bones align, how long your contact time is with the target, etc etc etc all sorts of subtle genetic and technique based factors.

 

[SummerStriker]

nevermind

 

[aries]

but the bigger you are, the harder it is going to be for you to move just as fast as someone who has more speed. which means you are going to have less punching power coming from speed alone, compared to anyone with more speed.

I don't mean a lightweight has more speed than a heavyweight so he punches harder, I mean get two people in the same weight ratio, eg 5'6 200 pounds and 6'6 300 pounds and whoever has more speed will hit harder, regardless of weight

Yes but what that study showed is that there really isn't that much difference (not statistically significant at least) in terms of speed between weight classes at least as far as olympic boxers are concerned.

You have to accelerate the weight to get the power, regardless of weight and technique. You wont get far with those two, because they don't give the speed you get from speed exercises which make up 50% more power that heavier guys are already losing, and in order to have it they need to do MORE of it than someone who is 50 pounds lighter to have the same speed power.

Absolutely f=ma. That is just physics. However what the study showed was the HW's punched just as fast as the LW's. BUT perhaps that is because they are olympic boxers.

One thing that I have thought of to explain the speed similarities is that the HW's will have a longer reach, therefore they will have a longer distance in which to accelerate their punch and reach the same velocity. This makes sense when you look at the speed of a kick (roundhouse) vs. a punch. Intuitively you might think a punch is faster. But what we find is that a kick has a much higher final velocity than a punch. The reason is it has a much longer flight path so it can build up more velocity. Not that it's quicker to the target than say a jab. The jab just has less distance to cover and probably accelerates toward it at a higher rate. But because it hits the target in less time the final velocity is lower.

I have had boxers both the same size get the best technique in power hits, and heavyweight.

One of them punches 150 psi harder. Why?

because one of them is limited with his speed from just PERFECT* technique. and his weight.

He will never be able to be as strong or as fast as the other guy can be, because he has never added any serious speed exercises that get him to move his punch faster than his usual limit.

I'm not arguing that speed isn't important but speed isn't nearly as trainable as technique because it is one of the most genetically limited characteristics of an athlete. To an extent you are born fast or not. Of course if you have two boxers the same weight with the same technique (giving same effective punching mass) then the faster one will produce more force, f=ma. It's a given. But that is not to say that a LW will have a significantly faster final velocity than a HW. They will be about the same, at least at an elite level.

As for the saying speed kills, well I'm sure we can all think of boxers who have good hand speed but are feather fisted for their weight division. Pauli Malinaggi is one that immediately springs to mind. The reason I would surmise is that he isn't able to get his weight into his shots as well as a Kelly Pavlik who isn't known for his speed.

Now take two fighters that were known for both their speed and their power, Tyson and Naseem Hamed. We can see that they both generate a lot of power from their legs and have excellent weight transference. They really sit down into their shots. When you have speed and good technique you have the best of both worlds in terms of power.

 

[Phlog]

^^^^^ win ^^^^^

 

[justincrews]

Yes but what that study showed is that there really isn't that much difference (not statistically significant at least) in terms of speed between weight classes at least as far as olympic boxers are concerned.





Absolutely f=ma. That is just physics. However what the study showed was the HW's punched just as fast as the LW's. BUT perhaps that is because they are olympic boxers.

One thing that I have thought of to explain the speed similarities is that the HW's will have a longer reach, therefore they will have a longer distance in which to accelerate their punch and reach the same velocity. This makes sense when you look at the speed of a kick (roundhouse) vs. a punch. Intuitively you might think a punch is faster. But what we find is that a kick has a much higher final velocity than a punch. The reason is it has a much longer flight path so it can build up more velocity. Not that it's quicker to the target than say a jab. The jab just has less distance to cover and probably accelerates toward it at a higher rate. But because it hits the target in less time the final velocity is lower.




I'm not arguing that speed isn't important but speed isn't nearly as trainable as technique because it is one of the most genetically limited characteristics of an athlete. To an extent you are born fast or not. Of course if you have two boxers the same weight with the same technique (giving same effective punching mass) then the faster one will produce more force, f=ma. It's a given. But that is not to say that a LW will have a significantly faster final velocity than a HW. They will be about the same, at least at an elite level.

As for the saying speed kills, well I'm sure we can all think of boxers who have good hand speed but are feather fisted for their weight division. Pauli Malinaggi is one that immediately springs to mind. The reason I would surmise is that he isn't able to get his weight into his shots as well as a Kelly Pavlik who isn't known for his speed.

Now take two fighters that were known for both their speed and their power, Tyson and Naseem Hamed. We can see that they both generate a lot of power from their legs and have excellent weight transference. They really sit down into their shots. When you have speed and good technique you have the best of both worlds in terms of power.

Good info, but what Im saying is that when your technique is trained to its limits, in other words, you have mastered your technique.
THEN we can talk about surpassing your natural speed limit.


Naseem and Tyson cannot be compared. They aren't even in the same weight ratio.

 

[justincrews]

I like your answer, you have good knowlege levels, Speed is 4 times more important than body weight for the power of a strike from a purely physics stand point (the squared part) but as you noted some slower guys can punch harder than some faster guys and thats due to MANY factors, and no one knows them all, things like how good your technique is, how much weight you transfer, which punching technique you use (there are many differences in boxing style punches alone) how your bones align, how long your contact time is with the target, etc etc etc all sorts of subtle genetic and technique based factors.

Get 2 guys, they both have 100% technique, its perfect. But you have to work your speed and strength more to get more speed and strength ontop of your perfect technique if you want to break your limits.

Anyway The 2 guys both punch slow punches, lets say they both do fast slowish power shots (hooks).

The key is, whoever is going to send that slow hook flying at a million miles per hour, and swing it in a rotated hook movement faster is going to deliver more damage.

SO more speed + a slower punch (hook) > a slower punch (hook)

 

[justincrews]

If those guys had the same technique as you do, their scores would probably be much higher.

Wieght is important when it comes to punching power, not as important as speed but its still makes a big difference.

Sheer mass is an assest for pushing people around not being pushed around and genrally crushing people.

Also bigger guys are more likely to be stronger than smaller guys so any form of grappling it is advantages to be the bigger guy, more so than in striking.

Lastly bigger guys have longer reach and more hieght usually, which are difficult problems to deal with.

So yea thats the truth, you probably dont like the truth because you arnt a big guy but thats how it is.

The big guys were miffed because they know deep down they are probably better than you at punching genetically speaking I mean potentially, and so to be out ranked by a smaller guy for a male is very anger invoking.

The biggest guys are not the hardest hitting guys but the hardest hitting guys are always in the heavyweight division so as you can see weight is very important. - Shavers, Foreman, etc not the Valuev Type because they are generally too slow.

On a more positive note smaller guys tend to be faster and more mobile which are great assests too, speed is more important for punching power than weight so maybe if they are very slow and you very fast you punching power can compete, also mobility when you see guys "running" sticking and moving around a slow big powerful guy, people think of the smaller faster guy as the weaker guy because hes "running" but lack of mobility is a severe weakness thats easily exploited.

when you said reach, your referring to taller and longer limbs, taller guys are actually less advantageous at grappling because of less leverage. But yes the bigger the better for grapples, however someone shorter but also big will be better at grappling than a taller bigger person

 

[justincrews]

Black people have a better acceleration from their body by roughly 2% due to their dna, its the reason why most boxers are black and why they are also sprinters, it seems they favour leg workouts/sports. However they do majority wise lack some endurance and are mainly specialized for short events.

 

[a guy]

Get 2 guys, they both have 100% technique, its perfect. But you have to work your speed and strength more to get more speed and strength ontop of your perfect technique if you want to break your limits.

Anyway The 2 guys both punch slow punches, lets say they both do fast slowish power shots (hooks).

The key is, whoever is going to send that slow hook flying at a million miles per hour, and swing it in a rotated hook movement faster is going to deliver more damage.

SO more speed + a slower punch (hook) > a slower punch (hook)

No one is arguing that increasing speed won't increase power. But the fact is, you're extremely limited in how much you can actually increase speed with exercises, especially once you're already in shape. As aries said, it's seriously limited by genetics. The majority of the improvements will come from repetition of technique.

Increasing maximal strength is always a good idea, but you don't do that with rotational speed exercises. You do it with compound lifts in linear motions, then you develop power, then you apply that power to your strikes by drilling technique. If there are specific weaknesses or imbalances inhibiting the movement, it's possible that rotational exercises might be useful to address that. However, once again, the best power comes from linear exercises and the best application of that power comes from drilling technique.

 

[JeetKunDoGuy]

You guys are forgetting the hidden variable: chi power.

 

[KidYoung]

One of the Sensei's at my school talks a lot about how gravity helps in strikes; he always encourages us to strike, with feet or hands, from above coming down. And although it feels weird, I can feel that the strikes are harder.

So, if you're taller - there's more chance that you're punching downwards (with gravity) and potentially punching harder. Thoughts?