Your size vs punching power

I find that technique generates more power than just muscle alone.

It absolutely does. Being bigger means you can land with even more force, but it's just the laws of physics that govern everything we do. Move in the right way, at the right time, and you can hit a bigger guy harder than he can hit you.

Anderson Silva isn't big. How did he knock out so many guys? Technique.

I only read that first post, so I don't know what the discussion in the topic is now. I just kind of freaked out on reading that statement, because it's so rare for people to discuss technique in this manner.
 
When measuring punch force in olympic boxers, one study looked at f=ma quite simply. They calculated the effective mass of the punch which was the mass of the fist at impact and they measured the velocity of the fist upon impact and the resultant acceleration in the known target mass. What they found was very interesting.

The heavier weight class boxers hit with more force and the reason they hit with more force was due primarily to a higher effective mass as they found that there was little significant variation of punch velocity across the weight classes. The SHW's had an effective punch mass of 5kg (SD+-2.4) and the flyweights 2.3kg (SD+-1.1).

Other studies have found that amongst boxers of the same weight there is a big difference in punch force dependent on experience which is due to technique (almost double when comparing elite vs. novice amateur boxers). So we can determine from both studies that higher punch force is mostly due to technique improvements which allow punching with a higher effective mass and that the bigger you are the higher your potential to produce more force due to punching with a bigger effective mass.


Biomechanics of the head for Olympic boxer punches to the face said:
Abstract
Objective: The biomechanics of the head for punches to the jaw and the risk of head injury from translational and rotational acceleration were studied.
Results: Punch force was higher for the heavier weight classes, due primarily to a higher effective mass of the punch.
Here's the study if anyone is interested:
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/710.full
 
I'm wondering where the concept of "I'm bigger than him, I must THEREFORE punch harder" comes from.

I find that technique generates more power than just muscle alone.

My company held a mini carnival, and one of the items was the "Test your punching power" machines. I'm a fairly small guy, 5'9" about 150lbs. I waited in line and, when it was my turn, I got a full score. The guys behind me thought, "If this skinny kid can get a full score, so can I!" and then started to punch. None of them even came close, and they were getting really pissed off. Never mind they have no concept of form, planting the foot, or generation of power from the legs and hips, after about 4 tries each, they walk away red-faced and gave me some "you must of cheated" comment.

I'm sick and tired of this crap. I have no idea why people think just because they are bigger, that they then naturally have the ability to punch hard.


lol. Big guys smash little guys when it comes to hitting hard. Outside of pro boxer little guys anyway. But they're very rare. Little guys that hit hard are very rare, too.



And don't be picking on big baby Huey's.:icon_lol:
 
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When measuring punch force in olympic boxers, one study looked at f=ma quite simply. They calculated the effective mass of the punch which was the mass of the fist at impact and they measured the velocity of the fist upon impact and the resultant acceleration in the known target mass. What they found was very interesting.

The heavier weight class boxers hit with more force and the reason they hit with more force was due primarily to a higher effective mass as they found that there was little significant variation of punch velocity across the weight classes. The SHW's had an effective punch mass of 5kg (SD+-2.4) and the flyweights 2.3kg (SD+-1.1).

Other studies have found that amongst boxers of the same weight there is a big difference in punch force dependent on experience which is due to technique (almost double when comparing elite vs. novice amateur boxers). So we can determine from both studies that higher punch force is mostly due to technique improvements which allow punching with a higher effective mass and that the bigger you are the higher your potential to produce more force due to punching with a bigger effective mass.



Here's the study if anyone is interested:
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/710.full

This is by far the best post I have ever seen on size/strength in relation to punching power. Thank you.
 
Technique, like strength or weight, can only take you so far. You need to have a balance of both.

I realise this is a post from 2005, and the user is now banned, but what the fucking avatar
 
This is by far the best post I have ever seen on size/strength in relation to punching power. Thank you.

Thanks and no prob, I'm just glad someone appreciates this line of thinking.
 
I have encountered all of this stuff you guys are talking about. I have never been in a street fight where the guy was not bigger than me. This stuff is natural. The vast majority of people are very ignorant about fighting. I have trained with guys that are surprised, after starting MA, how size does not matter that much.

Other points:
-BTW, Mike Tyson-in his prime- had great punching techniques and great hand speed. Funny story but I got into a fight in high school with a basketball player who said Mike Tyson wasn’t sh*t because he was short. When Tyson met some football players they would always talk about how small Tyson was.
-Better to get hit by a Mack truck going 5 MPH than a Prius going 75 MPH
-Big tigers eat little tigers but little tigers eat things a lot bigger than them
 
Since size doesnt matter, why dont you compare you punching to a big guy who has also trained about as long as you have???
 
When measuring punch force in olympic boxers, one study looked at f=ma quite simply. They calculated the effective mass of the punch which was the mass of the fist at impact and they measured the velocity of the fist upon impact and the resultant acceleration in the known target mass. What they found was very interesting.

The heavier weight class boxers hit with more force and the reason they hit with more force was due primarily to a higher effective mass as they found that there was little significant variation of punch velocity across the weight classes. The SHW's had an effective punch mass of 5kg (SD+-2.4) and the flyweights 2.3kg (SD+-1.1).

Other studies have found that amongst boxers of the same weight there is a big difference in punch force dependent on experience which is due to technique (almost double when comparing elite vs. novice amateur boxers). So we can determine from both studies that higher punch force is mostly due to technique improvements which allow punching with a higher effective mass and that the bigger you are the higher your potential to produce more force due to punching with a bigger effective mass.



Here's the study if anyone is interested:
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/710.full

I only had time to skim it, but that's great stuff. Thanks a lot for this. I really need to start doing some of my own research haha...
 
..I stopped reading right here. What about you?

P.S. Didn't Brittney or some other UFC right girl get the highest possible score on the machine as well? She simply pushed at the right angle...which proves these machines to be inaccurate as :icon_lol:



That's good you stopped reading there, because I don't care. You obviously don't know what I am talking about if you stopped reading there.



You obviously need the 100% technique... but you still wont get far with it. There is hidden speed that 100% technique will never get you. EVER, unless you do the correct training.


Simple now?
 
It absolutely does. Being bigger means you can land with even more force, but it's just the laws of physics that govern everything we do. Move in the right way, at the right time, and you can hit a bigger guy harder than he can hit you.

Anderson Silva isn't big. How did he knock out so many guys? Technique.

I only read that first post, so I don't know what the discussion in the topic is now. I just kind of freaked out on reading that statement, because it's so rare for people to discuss technique in this manner.




Get 2 clones of Anderson silvia with the best technique in the world, have one Anderson do more speed glove punches and speed punching exercises, plus both do their usual strength/heavybag training.

Whichever one has more hand speed has a higher chance of winning. So its not technique. Its speed + weight + technique
 
You're completely forgetting that a huge factor in how hard a person hits is how solid the structure and foundation behind the punch is. Two things that make that structure more solid are technique and thick bones. So assuming a smaller guy and bigger guy both have the same level of technique, the bigger guy has mass AND bone structure over the smaller guy who only has speed.

Saying technique won't get you far is really hard to argue with. That's just plain wrong. I'd love to know where you got that technique is only 20% of speed. I'd be willing to bet if you had two groups of people and had one group do only speed exercises while the other group only practiced punching technique, the technique group would improve both speed and power at a much higher rate than the speed exercise group. And for the record, when measuring punching power, speed isn't how many punches you can do in half a second. It's how fast the fist is traveling at the moment of impact. Besides, no matter how high that velocity is, it's worthless without the proper balance and alignment of the body that comes from technique.

The bigger guy doesn't need to do some ridiculous amount of speed exercises to be able to punch as hard as a smaller guy. His punches are going to have more weight and, more importantly, a more rigid structure supporting the transfer of force.

And by the way, you shouldn't need to say "I know this more than anyone here". If that was true, the knowledge contained in your post would be proof enough.




I am comparing someone who is in the same ratio of weight, eg a 2m guy who is 150kg and a 5'7 guy at 95kg


If they are the same ratio they can be compared, if the person is not the ratio, then even if he has more speed, he wont be a harder puncher, however my punches are harder than most heavyweights in our gym because they don't do enough speed exercises and only hitting the heavybag..

What you don't understand is that your limited with technique, you have to get faster than your own technique by adding speed weighted exercises in punching, parachute runs, etc. This will surpass any technique. Do you really think mike Tyson did none of this, he used weighted vests uphill, he did do weights and neck shrugs even though he didn't claim it, anyone in the heavyweight will because to train 5 days a week means youll lose your weight no matter how much cals you intake.

He did speed exercises and wouldnt punch anywhere near his level if he didn't do them.

True, more bone is better for protection, but it doesn't do much in terms of punch damage. We have tested that and what you've got to understand is I have guys with small frames and small bones that can punch as hard as mike did. They can ko in the first round against a guy who is 60 pounds heavier, and that has nothing to do with being naturally gifted. It isn't proven and is false. bigger hands are actually weaker in damage and its been tested. The area is spread more and the push force is big but the damage isn't.

Taller guys and very heavy guys will always have slower hard punches in comparison to a guy who is the same weight ratio, not at their weight exactly, but has more speed.

If the weight ratio isn't even, the heavier guy will win, but if they are even, and the one lighter can punch faster. He will ko the heavier guy because his punches will be like mike Tysons.
 
You're completely forgetting that a huge factor in how hard a person hits is how solid the structure and foundation behind the punch is. Two things that make that structure more solid are technique and thick bones. So assuming a smaller guy and bigger guy both have the same level of technique, the bigger guy has mass AND bone structure over the smaller guy who only has speed.

Saying technique won't get you far is really hard to argue with. That's just plain wrong. I'd love to know where you got that technique is only 20% of speed. I'd be willing to bet if you had two groups of people and had one group do only speed exercises while the other group only practiced punching technique, the technique group would improve both speed and power at a much higher rate than the speed exercise group. And for the record, when measuring punching power, speed isn't how many punches you can do in half a second. It's how fast the fist is traveling at the moment of impact. Besides, no matter how high that velocity is, it's worthless without the proper balance and alignment of the body that comes from technique.

The bigger guy doesn't need to do some ridiculous amount of speed exercises to be able to punch as hard as a smaller guy. His punches are going to have more weight and, more importantly, a more rigid structure supporting the transfer of force.

And by the way, you shouldn't need to say "I know this more than anyone here". If that was true, the knowledge contained in your post would be proof enough.





Your argument doesn't mean much when you don't listen. I said if you ADDED speed exercises to your heavybag, axe chops, weighted gloves, sprints, sled drags with ropes instead, medicine rope ball rotations


You only add a few speed exercises.

You see, someone who doesn't have speed is going to punch like a girl no matter how big he is. Just as someone who has no technique is going to punch like a girl no matter how big he is. And you cant compare a felterweight with a heavyweight, like I said, the same ratio.

The thing is you have guys like ernie shavers who hit harder than anyone bigger, and he was 183cm 96kg.

Do you know why? Yeah he was gifted etc.. but he did a lot of wood chopping, vests, SPEED EXERCISES. You see you need Weight X SPEED + 100% technique.

Imagine you with just Weight X 50% speed + 100% technique. You will be hitting alot less.


Plus someone with heavier hands is going to need more speed to keep up with my hands.
I would prefer more muscle than more bone.
 
I feel like punching power means more at higher levels of skill. Among hobbyist and amateur fighters, sparring, most of the time when someone gets floored or wobbled by a punch, it is because they walked into it or dodged their face into it.

The high percentage of errors among people with less experience / non-pros is so high that in even light sparring, people get wobbled by slipping straight into an oncoming punch or bobbing and weaving into a hook or body kick and smashing their face.

So long as your technique is correct and you have typical athletic attributes, I think you are going to have a good chance of harming people that are bigger than you because they will help you do it at some point.

I feel like punching power means more at higher levels where people aren't giving up much, and every move they make is taking power off your hit, rather than adding to it. For that, you need to be able to hit really hard to break through and do something.
 
When measuring punch force in olympic boxers, one study looked at f=ma quite simply. They calculated the effective mass of the punch which was the mass of the fist at impact and they measured the velocity of the fist upon impact and the resultant acceleration in the known target mass. What they found was very interesting.

The heavier weight class boxers hit with more force and the reason they hit with more force was due primarily to a higher effective mass as they found that there was little significant variation of punch velocity across the weight classes. The SHW's had an effective punch mass of 5kg (SD+-2.4) and the flyweights 2.3kg (SD+-1.1).

Other studies have found that amongst boxers of the same weight there is a big difference in punch force dependent on experience which is due to technique (almost double when comparing elite vs. novice amateur boxers). So we can determine from both studies that higher punch force is mostly due to technique improvements which allow punching with a higher effective mass and that the bigger you are the higher your potential to produce more force due to punching with a bigger effective mass.



Here's the study if anyone is interested:
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/710.full

Your argument doesn't mean much when you don't listen. I said if you ADDED speed exercises to your heavybag, axe chops, weighted gloves, sprints, sled drags with ropes instead, medicine rope ball rotations


You only add a few speed exercises.

You see, someone who doesn't have speed is going to punch like a girl no matter how big he is. Just as someone who has no technique is going to punch like a girl no matter how big he is. And you cant compare a felterweight with a heavyweight, like I said, the same ratio.

The thing is you have guys like ernie shavers who hit harder than anyone bigger, and he was 183cm 96kg.

Do you know why? Yeah he was gifted etc.. but he did a lot of wood chopping, vests, SPEED EXERCISES. You see you need Weight X SPEED + 100% technique.

Imagine you with just Weight X 50% speed + 100% technique. You will be hitting alot less.


Plus someone with heavier hands is going to need more speed to keep up with my hands.
I would prefer more muscle than more bone.

First, read the post above and the study linked. It's actually a very good read and completely contradicts your emphasis on speed considering there wasn't a significant variation in the speed of punches despite the different sizes of the fighters measured.

Also, read this article: http://www.badlefthook.com/2011/3/1...manny-pacquiaos-body-has-tricked-analysts-and
It specifically talks about how smaller guys (including Tyson) with larger skeletal structures tended to have extreme power for their weight class.

Nothing increases speed more than drilling the perfect technique countless times. It's more about muscle memory than anything else. Physical attributes are important and there's nothing wrong with doing exercises to increase your physical strength and power, but speed and power both come predominantly from technique.
 
First, read the post above and the study linked. It's actually a very good read and completely contradicts your emphasis on speed considering there wasn't a significant variation in the speed of punches despite the different sizes of the fighters measured.

Also, read this article: http://www.badlefthook.com/2011/3/1...manny-pacquiaos-body-has-tricked-analysts-and
It specifically talks about how smaller guys (including Tyson) with larger skeletal structures tended to have extreme power for their weight class.

Nothing increases speed more than drilling the perfect technique countless times. It's more about muscle memory than anything else. Physical attributes are important and there's nothing wrong with doing exercises to increase your physical strength and power, but speed and power both come predominantly from technique.

Cosigned. People need to understand that power for striking is dependent on the ability to transfer mass to the target. All the speed in the world will bounce off if a person can't effectively transfer mass. This is where technique is the key.
 
Hi, sorry for responding to a pretty dead thread but i just signed up and this thread caught my eye. I wanted to respond to the first couple guys saying that the bigger you are the more power potential you have... while it sounds good on paper i kinda wanted to hear their take on speed equalling power, not just size.


personally i have been training in one martial arts form or another since i was 12 (just about 6 years)

from personal experience i would have to say compareing big vs small guys strikes are like comparing apples and oranges. Bigger people from personal experience (and this isnt always the case of course exceptions to every rule) seem to hit with less initial impact but more follow through while smaller guys are just the opposite (which i find leaves me with a brain jarring effect).


from personal experience i think speed plays a big part of it, though i think you need to find a happy medium to prevent getting man handled in the clinch...though i guess thats a different issue

I think there is generally a much bigger difference in size between a trained 250lbs guy and a 125lbs guy than there is a speed difference. There is a speed difference, but not twice as much
 
Maybe this is partly due to weight classes. When you watch a fight it implies its unfair to fight a bigger opponent, and you never actually see the big guy get beaten. Then again, the greeks didnt have weight classes, and wrestling, boxing and pankration (mma) were called the heavy sports as the biggest guys usually won.

If someone was training for self defense, would you advise they gain a bit of weight?
 
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I feel like punching power means more at higher levels of skill. Among hobbyist and amateur fighters, sparring, most of the time when someone gets floored or wobbled by a punch, it is because they walked into it or dodged their face into it.

The high percentage of errors among people with less experience / non-pros is so high that in even light sparring, people get wobbled by slipping straight into an oncoming punch or bobbing and weaving into a hook or body kick and smashing their face.

So long as your technique is correct and you have typical athletic attributes, I think you are going to have a good chance of harming people that are bigger than you because they will help you do it at some point.

I feel like punching power means more at higher levels where people aren't giving up much, and every move they make is taking power off your hit, rather than adding to it. For that, you need to be able to hit really hard to break through and do something.

True. Only time I ever got rocked bad was when I tried to duck / slip a jab, and got caught with straight right on the back of the head.
 
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