You think Tyson could have beat Rahman in 2001?

[SaiWa]

Mike Tyson ruined Mike Tyson. Everything else is just poor me. But the downfall played right into his myth. Every loss was bad circumstance or something else. Don King, the whores in Japan, his mentors death, Rooney gone, fabricated rape charge blablabla.

I dont think there is one boxer in the history of mankind with that many built in excuses.

Perhaps he would have eventually self destructed. It's a what if game.

But prior to switching to Don King and leaving Kevin Rooney, Mike Tyson was a perfect fighter. His form (mobility & defensive skills - particularly head movements) noticeably declined once he left Kevin Rooney. Prime Mike Tyson had amazing defense. He was elusive and hard to hit and he countered off your misses. Peek-a-boo style is a counter puncher style and it all starts with defense. Amazing defense allows for amazing counterattacks and that's what made Mike Tyson so special. Once he stopped caring about defense he was no longer the invincible undefeatable monster he was in his prime.

The Peek-a-boo style is not an easy style to learn and much harder to teach. The trainers who followed after Rooney clearly didn't know how to continue training Mike Tyson the right way and it showed.

 

[Seano]

Hey I am big Tyson fan but he was far far and long away from the elusive prime version of himself by 2001.

There is still no guarantee that Mike wouldn't win via a knockout but he'd be the underdog in that matchup in 2001.

Now if you are talking prime Mike Tyson ('88) then i'll favor him over anyone else in their prime..

I actually think Tyson would have been heavily favored. Rahman was only about a year removed from getting KO'd by Maskaev. Plus Tyson was always favored in big fights it seems.

 

[TheGreatA]

Don't think so... He was an athlete's athlete - eat, sleep and train was all he was doing and he had enough of it. The old man couldn't have done a damn thing about his lifestyle change once he became a multi millionaire.

I wouldn't under-estimate the near hypnotic effect that Cus had on the people who worked for him though. He, for sure, had already scouted the possibility of Mike getting lazy and running into all these temptations after turning into a millionaire, which is why he set him up with a bunch of guys who would manage his spending habits, invest his money for him, and save it up for his future. Not only that, but he was doing the psychological work by constantly showing Tyson the tapes of all these other great champions, whose reputations and warrior-like mentality he would have to live up to. As a result Tyson nowadays is almost like a walking boxing encyclopedia, he knows more about the history of the sport than most so-called boxing experts.

Without Cus and co. (which was not just Cus but also Jimmy Jacobs and others), Mike lost the brains behind the operation, who could counter-act the influence of hustlers like Don King. Rooney was a good trainer but he wasn't exactly a bright guy or anything, just a simple fighting man. It was easy for him to lose influence over Tyson to a guy like Don King and all the other leeches, who could talk just about anybody into signing a contract.

D'Amato in the 50's and 60's had to deal with mobsters so boxing's various "dark sides" were nothing new to him, he was probably prepared for it. One problem about him is that he may have been too paranoid and over-zealous in protecting Mike from all the bad influences (or atleast what he deemed as bad influences), like he was with Patterson.

Difference though is that Patterson didn't really need Cus's guidance, he was a gentleman and a dedicated pro on his own, but Mike really did need a guy like Cus who would fight for him, outside of the ring.

 

[kezxtie]

I actually think Tyson would have been heavily favored. Rahman was only about a year removed from getting KO'd by Maskaev. Plus Tyson was always favored in big fights it seems.

He opened as a 25-to-1 favorite over Holyfield in their first meeting, and was soon bet down to 5-to-1

I believe it's the biggest loss Vegas has ever taken from a sporting event

I am unabashed in my bias for Mike Tyson, which my other posts probably demonstrate...

But there is not a man who has laced the gloves that I would favor over prime Lennox Lewis.

I would favor Holmes, Liston, and Fury over Lennox but not confidently.

Lennox was a beast; as perfect a physical specimen as can be for HW (minus the chin) and had the skill to complement his body.

 

[jeff7b9]

He opened as a 25-to-1 favorite over Holyfield in their first meeting, and was soon bet down to 5-to-1

I believe it's the biggest loss Vegas has ever taken from a sporting event

I would favor Holmes, Liston, and Fury over Lennox but not confidently.

Lennox was a beast; as perfect a physical specimen as can be for HW (minus the chin) and had the skill to complement his body.

I think he would pick Liston apart, but Holmes and Fury would be very interesting. Prime Holmes was a perfect HW, especially for his era where 6’3 was big enough to dominate.

Lennox vs Fury... that’s a dream match there. Both men would present problems that the other really didn’t face in their career. I tend to think Lennox knocks him out, Tyson Fury has fantastic head movement and timing, but he keeps his hands low and I don’t think that is a good idea against Lennox, his 1-2 was as good as I have seen.
Kind of like they said for Fury vs Wilder “one guy needs to be perfect for 12 rounds...” and to Fury’s credit, over 17 rounds or so, he only got clipped twice, but Lennox is technically sound in a way Wilder lacks and I think that he would find a home for his right hand eventually. Fury does not have the power needed to KO Lennox and while I could see him winning rounds, I think he gets caught.

* Personally I think Lennox had a better chin than he gets credit for, The shots the put him down from McCall and Rahman were BOMBS. Once Emmanuel Stewart got involved and cleaned up Lennox’s defense his chin held up fine.

I’d pay good money to see those fight though! That’s what I hope the afterlife is. Dream matchups like this, concerts with ensembles like David Gilmore, Mozart, John Bonham, Ella Fitzgerald...

 

[Roids]

Only a moron would think Lennox was chinny. Only 2 Ko loses in his career from 2 huge perfect shots in the HW division. Picking Fury over Lennon is basically claiming he out boxes him over the distance which is laughable. Fury has boxing skills and is awkward but that is still a big step away from being a master boxer. He is also quite sloppy and open, so Lennon prob stops him or wins an awkward by clear decision. Standards are so poor these days that someone with merely good boxing skills looks amazing.

 

[XThe GreatestX]

Only a moron would think Lennox was chinny. Only 2 Ko loses in his career from 2 huge perfect shots in the HW division. Picking Fury over Lennon is basically claiming he out boxes him over the distance which is laughable. Fury has boxing skills and is awkward but that is still a big step away from being a master boxer. He is also quite sloppy and open, so Lennon prob stops him or wins an awkward by clear decision. Standards are so poor these days that someone with merely good boxing skills looks amazing.

ehhhh.

Maybe saying chinny is going to far but he wasn't exactly Carl Froch in the chin department.

which hey. he had everything else i guess

 

[StewDogg11]

Rahman would stop him IMO.

 

[spacetime]

It would probably be the same outcome as against Botha

 

[mozfonky]

Don't think so... He was an athlete's athlete - eat, sleep and train was all he was doing and he had enough of it. The old man couldn't have done a damn thing about his lifestyle change once he became a multi millionaire.

I've often thought that, the same forces that moved in would have moved in if Cus was alive and Mike, being easy to lead, would have probably left, even though he says "i'd never leave cus".

 

[Jayofteror]

Hey I am big Tyson fan but he was far far and long away from the elusive prime version of himself by 2001.

There is still no guarantee that Mike wouldn't win via a knockout but he'd be the underdog in that matchup in 2001.

Now if you are talking prime Mike Tyson ('88) then i'll favor him over anyone else in their prime..

Agreed. 1988 Tyson = God Like! LOL

 

[defjaam]

I've often thought that, the same forces that moved in would have moved in if Cus was alive and Mike, being easy to lead, would have probably left, even though he says "i'd never leave cus".

It's pretty normal and human... Some boxing fans think that he should have lived like a robot for 10 more years, compile a record of 70-0 and spend his time with the old man like Daniel from Karate Kid.

 

[XThe GreatestX]

Rahman would stop him IMO.

the thing about Rahman is he wasn't really known as a KO puncher until the Lennox Ko. That is kinda what made his reputation for that sorta thing

because before that his only legitimate KO win over a good fighter was Corrie Sanders (which isn't bad at all as Corrie was super tough). but still not exactly the tippy top guys

 

[StewDogg11]

the thing about Rahman is he wasn't really known as a KO puncher until the Lennox Ko. That is kinda what made his reputation for that sorta thing

because before that his only legitimate KO win over a good fighter was Corrie Sanders (which isn't bad at all as Corrie was super tough). but still not exactly the tippy top guys

I’m not necessarily saying he’d get a clean KO. I feel like he was too big, strong, and physical for this version of Tyson who was more or less a one trick pony with mediocre cardio. Granted Tyson might land a lucky punch but I think Rahman would grind/wear him out and eventually get a TKO or Tyson would get frustrated and get DQ’d.