"You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century"

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by TheGoodNews, May 10, 2014.

  1. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Orange Belt

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

    Post-scarcity or just social evolution?

    There were at least 2 attempts during the first half of the 20th century to create moneyless societies:

    "Some collectives did in fact abolish money. They had no system of exchange, not even coupons." The Anarchist Collectives by Sam Dolgoff

    "In the absence of private property, and of money, it is obvious that the profit motive does not operate in this society." Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia by Melford Spiro

    In the past decade there have been experimental attempts, both large and small, to provide alternatives to monetary exchange.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

    Would future tech or social development make this a viable possibility? Would human behavior make it fundamentally impractical?
     
  2. MusterX

    MusterX Titanium Belt

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    You lost me when you started talking about no private property. Not a likely scenario especially in a country like the United States where private property is a fundamental ideology shared by millions of people. First you are going to need to burn our constitution, probably have some sort of civil war, then wait a generation or two while people like me die off.

    One of the most sacred things in the U.S. is the idea that my land and home are not only private but defendable to the death. Many states observe castle doctrine. Being that most of humanity is territorial, which is why we have always had tribes, nations, private property etc, you are also going to have to figure out how to breed out of humans the urge to "stake a their claim" of land.

    Also, how can there be no currency. People will use a barter system which is still a form of currency. You think drug dealers are just going to give their shit away? Or for that matter, Walmart?
     
  3. James Keith

    James Keith Silver Belt

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  4. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Orange Belt

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    You're assuming certain things won't become anachronistic due to unforeseen or even radically advanced technological developments. And the scenario you described would be very unlikely if millions upon millions willingly accept the new technology and the changes it would bring. Look at how quickly and readily the general public accepted the internet or iphones and, maybe, soon 3d printers. (or even automobiles and radios for that matter, Bucky.) Why even bother with money for things you can manufacture yourself? Less obtainable items might be another issue.

    But people will accept a sea change in customs and society if it is very beneficial to them. The Constitution doesn't prohibit that. And my entire point was about societies without money. Not ones without property. That just happened to be the case in one example. Definitely not the others. Did you bother to even look? Typical knee-jerk reaction.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
     
  5. LucasWithLidOff

    LucasWithLidOff Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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  6. 5H3RD0G

    5H3RD0G Silver Belt

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    Money is an evolution of maturity. It's currently in the infant stages due to how it easily manipulates people. Once we figure out how to implement it, I know a couple of minds that know how to accomplish it but time will tell if money rules us or we rule the money. :icon_lol:
     
  7. 7437

    7437 Gold Belt

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    some resources will always be finite, there is no tech that can ever fix that. raw materials and land being the big ones
     
  8. ben236

    ben236 Silver Belt

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    People are always going to want to exchange goods and services regardless of what system you implement which is not a bad thing because it increases the overall wealth of the society. Eliminate money and you end up with a barter system which is a much less effective method of exchange meaning societal wealth either increases at a much slower rate, stagnates, or even decreases.
     
  9. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Everything must be valued in a rational economy (meaning conscious choices are made), so having a unit of value is always required. The only meaningful question is who controls those units of value, and what limitations there are on its exchange.

    Even in a money-less commune, for example, somebody is making all the economic decisions and valuing everything on both a productive and distributive basis. Just because they might make that valuation on an irrational or 'intuitive' basis, rather than on precise numerical basis, doesn't somehow make the economy free of valuation. Nor does it stop somebody from deciding how to distribute social goods and on what basis.

    So basically it's a meaningless semantic gesture.
     
  10. Sohei

    Sohei Manning the air

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    Even in Star Trek I think they had 'credits' which were similar to dollars.
     
  11. yookfarb

    yookfarb Red Belt

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    Humans might not even be around in the 24th century.
     
  12. MusterX

    MusterX Titanium Belt

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    Land ownership man, there is no amount of tech I can conceive of that will make me or anyone else surrender land ownership. I don't believe in technological utopias mainly because humanity is very primal when it comes to territory. Just like a bear or a dog or any other predator has a territory it marks, so do humans.

    In a cashless society how would you not have to forfeit land ownership? How would you aquire land? Government just going to give it out? And speaking of governments, how are they going to be convinced to stop making bombs and bullets for their wars?
     
  13. MusterX

    MusterX Titanium Belt

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    England used a stick system for over 700 years. They would take a hickory stick and carve notches on it to represent the denomination of money. If you borrowed money the lender would break the stick in half and they would keep half and give you half because they realized that no two wood grains are the same. Great for stopping counterfit rings. when the loan is called in you put the two sticks together and see if they match.

    Kinda weird, but yea they used tree limbs as money.....for 700 years.
     
  14. OldGoat

    OldGoat Red Belt

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    Quite possibly our descendants will be part of a real Borg collective.
     
  15. CableandThanos

    CableandThanos Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    In that Argentina video (I only watched a couple minutes) It talks about everyone starting out on equal footing. What happens when a certain percentage of people blow their equal footing, weather it be blow their money, get into debt, lose land/property in gambling, drugs, etc.

    What do we do with the percentage (which I sure will be the same percentage or more of fuck ups we have now) of fuck ups? Do we still offer social programs, even though we all start off on the same equal footing?
     
  16. JuliaB4GSP

    JuliaB4GSP Purple Belt

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    Picard owned a family vineyard in France, frenz. So there is property ownership and inheritance. Star Trek was cryptic about the economy since we only saw the world from the vantage point of military vessels. Obviously living in military life everything was hierarchy and centrally planned, but it's not clear if civilian society was any different. You can assume the entire Earth economy was devoted to space exploration and exo-planet resource exploitation aka colonization, so the military again.

    See Capitol Hill Babysitting Co-op for an example of how a cashless(non-commodity tool of barter) society might work.
     
  17. DhakaMMA

    DhakaMMA Purple Belt

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    These people talking about money-less society, Zeitgeist, whatever, are not much different than the communists before them. I say this not because of ad hominem, but because both these groups of people cannot help but look at society as some sort of lego-set. As Adam Smith talked about "The Man of System" in which it does not recognize that human beings are not pieces on a chessboard. They will inevitable do things that you don't want, that you don't think are the best way to do things. What happens then: either you are undermined, or you engage in tyranny for obedience. These money-less fetishists will soon realize they can either be ignored totally, or they will start getting violent. Communists, anarcho-socialists, Zeitgeist, they're all the same despite each claiming to be more peaceful then the former.
     
  18. AgentOrange24

    AgentOrange24 Ice Cold

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    Who the hell knows what we'll have figured out in 300 years.

    Don't see much point in speculating on it, my great grand children's grand kids will be dead by then.
     
  19. JuliaB4GSP

    JuliaB4GSP Purple Belt

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    Money-less society doesn't necessarily mean socialism, communism, anarchism.

    You could have a technologically sufficient centrally planned democratic society where worker hours are demand-based, workers are held accountable. You work when you're needed and get credit for the hours of others, goods and services reproduced, when you do work. Honestly, we live in a highly regulated, centrally planned state directed economy already. It's not that far-fetched that capital accumulation could become more of less superfluous, not even a redistribution model would be all that necessary since government still controls and directs most important resources.
     
  20. DhakaMMA

    DhakaMMA Purple Belt

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    Sounds like what I just said above.

    Yet, there are blackmarkets, crime, coups, revolutions and wars. Central planning is all that it is, "planning". It never totally works the way you want it to.
     

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