WWE is still overproduced

[Peli]

Holy shit.

So I haven't been keeping up with raw regularly since the pandemic started. I know this has been said for the past decade or so and I'm beating a dead horse.

But man is WWE overproduced for the presentation to the promos to the actual wrestling.

I like jimmy smith. I like pat . I think they do well in their roles as commentators but they all sound like they went to the school of Michael Cole broadcasting. Including the sideline reporters. A lot of time their cadence mimics that of Cole. What happened to the days of Kevin Kelly, Jonathan coachmen, Lillian Garcia. Characters that have their own unique thing.

I'm not ragging on Cole either. His earlier run with tax as smackdown commentators was great and he's really the consistent commentator over the past twenty years for WWE. Consistently solid but man, it's still formulaic.

The matches all feel like 'let me get my shit in, we only got three mins.' Lol. I don't want to compare them to aew or other wrestling companies but even within their own 'universe, nxt flows better even though nxt has some of the WWE issues I mentioned. Just not as much because it's produced by other people.


Anyway I'm ranting like an old bitch. I don't hate WWE it's still good but production needs a revamp. From top to bottom lol.

 

[Herwald]

It's both overproduced and underproduced.

All the lights, LED lights, colors, graphics, costume trinkets, glossy and over polished ring area - making it look like a toy set. There's no focal point, the stage lacks presence and separation from the rest of the arena, while all the little visual elements just tire the attention out. All you really need is pyro to start the show and a bad ass ring with a top light - which puts the emphasis on the stage and gives wrestlers that bodybuilding lighting, making them look better.

At the same time, as a story telling medium, it's, effectively, dead and larps as a UFC alternative, instead of realizing what it is: a TV show. You don't get any real vignettes, characterization, storytelling is in the dumpster, there's no outside ring action in the real world (like Stone Cold's trolling of Vince's property), the way it's shot is still stuck in the 70s - they should've long ago turned the camera work into a "The Shield"/"Office"/"Parks and Recreation" type of model where we can follow the story from the stage to behind the scenes to the real world in a pseudo-documentary type of way.

Audience that cares about work rate and matches are the ones still watching. In other words - nobody cares about the matches, they mean nothing and will never speak to the casuals - without whom your product will die.

I get that WWE went through a ton of PR drama in the mid-to-late 2000s, so the PG era was inevitable, but why would you tune in for anything when you know that nothing will push any boundaries? And - now that shindig has also multiplied with the PC era of the sociopolitical climate - you won't get any storytelling either. Cause a story needs a bad guy, but a bad guy - even if he, eventually, gets what he deserves - would hurt twitter fee fees and we can't have that.

Worst part is that wrestling still has potential and is more real than it ever was. The whole world is predominantly marks - people attacking actors for roles they played, like they represent that character's views. Even in UFC, a blatant actor like Colby gets legitimate emotions; others have completely marked out for Elon Musk, most believe in aliens... man, there's so much for a pro wrestler to work with. The time for people believing in fake shit is now. But it's not allowed, so WWE will keep spinning it's wheels.

Lastly, multiple 3 hour shows? Are you for real? Should be 1 hour tops.

 

[Thrawn33]

The fucking quick cuts between cameras bugs the shit out of me....

 

[Thad Castle v2]

A show produced for idiots

 

[BEAST]

You have to remember, WWE wants to make "moments" that people will remember, not angles or high workrate matches.
For some people, that's all the need to enjoy wrestling.

 

[Peli]

It's both overproduced and underproduced.

All the lights, LED lights, colors, graphics, costume trinkets, glossy and over polished ring area - making it look like a toy set. There's no focal point, the stage lacks presence and separation from the rest of the arena, while all the little visual elements just tire the attention out. All you really need is pyro to start the show and a bad ass ring with a top light - which puts the emphasis on the stage and gives wrestlers that bodybuilding lighting, making them look better.

At the same time, as a story telling medium, it's, effectively, dead and larps as a UFC alternative, instead of realizing what it is: a TV show. You don't get any real vignettes, characterization, storytelling is in the dumpster, there's no outside ring action in the real world (like Stone Cold's trolling of Vince's property), the way it's shot is still stuck in the 70s - they should've long ago turned the camera work into a "The Shield"/"Office"/"Parks and Recreation" type of model where we can follow the story from the stage to behind the scenes to the real world in a pseudo-documentary type of way.

Audience that cares about work rate and matches are the ones still watching. In other words - nobody cares about the matches, they mean nothing and will never speak to the casuals - without whom your product will die.

I get that WWE went through a ton of PR drama in the mid-to-late 2000s, so the PG era was inevitable, but why would you tune in for anything when you know that nothing will push any boundaries? And - now that shindig has also multiplied with the PC era of the sociopolitical climate - you won't get any storytelling either. Cause a story needs a bad guy, but a bad guy - even if he, eventually, gets what he deserves - would hurt twitter fee fees and we can't have that.

Worst part is that wrestling still has potential and is more real than it ever was. The whole world is predominantly marks - people attacking actors for roles they played, like they represent that character's views. Even in UFC, a blatant actor like Colby gets legitimate emotions; others have completely marked out for Elon Musk, most believe in aliens... man, there's so much for a pro wrestler to work with. The time for people believing in fake shit is now. But it's not allowed, so WWE will keep spinning it's wheels.

Lastly, multiple 3 hour shows? Are you for real? Should be 1 hour tops.

I think the work rate is good, but I think even the matches are overproduced. I went to an NXT show and I went to Monday night RAW. The work rate at the time was two different things. I spend hundreds to get into raw and left disappointed. I got to NXT at a cheaper price and got a better experience when I went.

The way the matches are produced is bad. I think WWE has some of the best if not the best psychology in the wrestling business, but like I said, it seems like everyone just gets their shit in, rinse and repeat for the most part and go home. Some PPVs even feel like glorified RAWs/Smackdowns. I'm not so much talking about MiTB it was decent. I'm more so just talking about WWE consistently, especially outside of the big shows.

The matches they way they are produce don't carry momentum. They don't build off big spots in the the matches. They do it a big spot, let it dissiapate, try to get a crowd reaction shot then back to the match again. That kills momentum. For as much shit AEW gets, they don't do that shit. They ride the momentum. NXT too. NXT does a better job of riding the momentum and keeping you engaged in the match. WWE main roster is just big spot, rest, spot, rest, spot, rest. It's annoying and the way they shoot the tv is really bad. The pacing of the matches are really slow.

All the announcers sound exactly the same. All of them. I don't know who this raw guy is. I guess he replaced the previous chick before that but they're interchangeable. It's too corporate. No one outside of the wrestlers are allowed any personality and if they are, its toned down. I really missed Lillian garcia, kevin kelly, michael cole, all in a backstage reporter role. It was great.




The newer guys just come off as Anchors from the news industry that work for WWE.

 

[Peli]

The fucking quick cuts between cameras bugs the shit out of me....

I always heard about the cuts but never really noticed it while I'm watching it. The first time I noticed all the jumps is when SRS pointed out there were 17 cuts in a 40 second video



Lol. all those cuts in a small video. Jesus.

 

[Thrawn33]

I always heard about the cuts but never really noticed it while I'm watching it. The first time I noticed all the jumps is when SRS pointed out there were 17 cuts in a 40 second video



Lol. all those cuts in a small video. Jesus.

When Drew Mac was doing the chair beatdown it was pretty obvious to me, and I hated it. Seems like they do it whenever there's some rapid fire strikes thrown, makes me feel like I'm watching an action movie where they have to hide the stuntman who is doing the actual shit (..Taken)

 

[Peli]

When Drew Mac was doing the chair beatdown it was pretty obvious to me, and I hated it. Seems like they do it whenever there's some rapid fire strikes thrown, makes me feel like I'm watching an action movie where they have to hide the stuntman who is doing the actual shit (..Taken)

I notice the rattle of the camera more than anything when they are trying to sell bumps or spots. That's the shit I hate the most.

I however thought the camera guy flipping the camera around on the Kevin Owens spot on smackdown or whenever the fuck it was was pretty cool..

 

[Herwald]

I think the work rate is good, but I think even the matches are overproduced. I went to an NXT show and I went to Monday night RAW. The work rate at the time was two different things. I spend hundreds to get into raw and left disappointed. I got to NXT at a cheaper price and got a better experience when I went.

The way the matches are produced is bad. I think WWE has some of the best if not the best psychology in the wrestling business, but like I said, it seems like everyone just gets their shit in, rinse and repeat for the most part and go home. Some PPVs even feel like glorified RAWs/Smackdowns. I'm not so much talking about MiTB it was decent. I'm more so just talking about WWE consistently, especially outside of the big shows.

The matches they way they are produce don't carry momentum. They don't build off big spots in the the matches. They do it a big spot, let it dissiapate, try to get a crowd reaction shot then back to the match again. That kills momentum. For as much shit AEW gets, they don't do that shit. They ride the momentum. NXT too. NXT does a better job of riding the momentum and keeping you engaged in the match. WWE main roster is just big spot, rest, spot, rest, spot, rest. It's annoying and the way they shoot the tv is really bad. The pacing of the matches are really slow.

All the announcers sound exactly the same. All of them. I don't know who this raw guy is. I guess he replaced the previous chick before that but they're interchangeable. It's too corporate. No one outside of the wrestlers are allowed any personality and if they are, its toned down. I really missed Lillian garcia, kevin kelly, michael cole, all in a backstage reporter role. It was great.




The newer guys just come off as Anchors from the news industry that work for WWE.

Oh ok, in ring stuff, specifically, is what your main issue is. First off, though - good read, I appreatiate your opinion.

So, my understanding is this - and I'll mention numerous factors, but since it's like an interconnected hamsterwheel, there's no correct starting point, you just jump into it and then realize how it's all connected and what a mess it is:

It starts off with the lack of smaller organizations where the talent can feed off different crowds, learn the psychology and develop they're own style. As a fix, WWE have NXT and the performance center, but - as nice as it is - it's inevitable that the few names coaching everyone there, and being overseen by Triple H, would lead to a level of homogony in everyone's style.

Then there's commercials setting the template for the matches - it wasn't normal to run a commercial during a match in the late 90s when wrestling was popular. No one from Cornette to Russo to Jim Ross likes that, it used to be as baffling as running a commercial during a UFC fight would be now. But there you have it. And since the program is so long and everyone's expected to use wrestling to pad out the run time, and they're all taught by the same people on how to deal with this - you get the same template.

Then, at the top, still hangs the same thing I mentioned before: all these guys are stuffed into the PG/PC box which in on itself limits wrestler's creativity. In charge of dealing with this you have Triple H and Stephanie who are picking the writers that are told to jump through the same old Triple H/Steph hoops as the previous writers. Leading nowhere.

At every point in the pyramid you have something that's stuck in the mud or revolves around the whims of the same thinking.

As for commentators, JR used to tease people about the main event, about what's coming next (especially if he felt something was dragging, remind what's exciting) - later in the night, later this week or just plugging the next PPV and how current shenanigans tie into it. It was the good old fashioned wrestling thinking of "everything is a promo for the next thing". But Stephanie and Triple H decided they wanted less of the carny approach, less characters on the mic and more of a pro MMA sounding desk - who are there just to call the fight. So you don't have a storyteller on the mic, adding to the viewer's understanding of who, what, when, where, why - you just have some dweebs reacting to moves. And it's all the same.

This is why I think both audio and video hits you this way. But it all stems from the top. There's just no freedom and too many restrictions. A lot of these wrestlers have tried to no avail and are now visibly there for a paycheck only, so why would they even change up their matches? Just do the same thing, whatever, move on. It's what their bosses want, anyway.

 

[Peli]

Oh ok, in ring stuff, specifically, is what your main issue is. First off, though - good read, I appreatiate your opinion.

So, my understanding is this - and I'll mention numerous factors, but since it's like an interconnected hamsterwheel, there's no correct starting point, you just jump into it and then realize how it's all connected and what a mess it is:

It starts off with the lack of smaller organizations where the talent can feed off different crowds, learn the psychology and develop they're own style. As a fix, WWE have NXT and the performance center, but - as nice as it is - it's inevitable that the few names coaching everyone there, and being overseen by Triple H, would lead to a level of homogony in everyone's style.

Then there's commercials setting the template for the matches - it wasn't normal to run a commercial during a match in the late 90s when wrestling was popular. No one from Cornette to Russo to Jim Ross likes that, it used to be as baffling as running a commercial during a UFC fight would be now. But there you have it. And since the program is so long and everyone's expected to use wrestling to pad out the run time, and they're all thought by the same people on how to deal with this - you get the same template.

Then, at the top, still hangs the same thing I mentioned before: all these guys are stuffed into the PG/PC box which in on itself limits wrestler's creativity. In charge of dealing with this you have Triple H and Stephanie who are picking the writers that are told to jump through the same old Triple H/Steph hoops as the previous writers. Leading nowhere.

At every point in the pyramid you have something that's stuck in the mud or revolves around the whims of the same thinking.

As for commentators, JR used to tease people about the main event, about what's coming next (especially if he felt something was dragging, remind what's exciting) - later in the night, later this week or just plugging the next PPV and how current shenanigans tie into it. It was the good old fashioned wrestling thinking of "everything is a promo for the next thing". But Stephanie and Triple H decided they wanted less of the carny approach, less characters on the mic and more of a pro MMA sounding desk - who are there just to call the fight. So you don't have a storyteller on the mic, adding to the viewer's understanding of who, what, when, where, why - you just have some dweebs reacting to moves. And it's all the same.

This is why I think both audio and video hits you this way. But it all stems from the top. There's just no freedom and too many restrictions. A lot of these wrestlers have tried to no avail and are now visibly there for a paycheck only, so why would they even change up their matches? Just do the same thing, whatever, move on. It's what their bosses want, anyway.

Its the whole presentation. It doesn't run like a wrestling show. From the set, the commentary, the backstage interviews, the reporter-talent, to the actual produced matches in the ring. Like you said, its like a toy box. It doesn't feel like a wrestling show. It kinda feels like people playing wrestling if that makes sense. It feels like how I use to feel when I would play-wrestle with my siblings. Like that. Because the pace is so slow sometimes. The matches don't feel connected. I'm not saying they have to be high spot monkeys. They just have to have a good match. NXT is not as high paced as AEW but they build momentum. It works there. The match against Kross and Gargono, I liked it was a great match, plus what happened afterwards.

Well, aitch and stephanie are wrong in that regard. You need someone to connect at home. If someones goign to be in your ear for as long you tune in, might be one's entire childhood, you should have them be a story teller, relatable to the audience. Liek your friend walking you/driving you through the show.

 

[STRYDG]

The fucking quick cuts between cameras bugs the shit out of me....

Plus the zooming in and out is retarded.

 

[DoctorDeelon]

I just feel like, with no competition, WWE has never really evolved or at least figured out what pro wrestling should be in 2021. The production and technical aspects have changed but it just seems like the product and the way they tell stories hasn't evolved at all.

 

[TKing]

The camera jumping around every 5 seconds is tough to watch. You hear the commentary telling you what's going on but you miss half of it because the camera cuts. Its tough in any matches where weapons are used.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Imagine if Cole flipped like that on live television.

 

[Small Town Andrew]

It is over produced but that doesn't bother me as much as a 3 hour raw with mediocre talent.

They need to end the brand split. Keep nXT and have 1 main roster. Also get rid of womens wrestling. Wrestling was successful for years without womens wrestling and the ratings have only went in the toilet since they started being featured. It sucks.

 

[Peli]

It is over produced but that doesn't bother me as much as a 3 hour raw with mediocre talent.

They need to end the brand split. Keep nXT and have 1 main roster. Also get rid of womens wrestling. Wrestling was successful for years without womens wrestling and the ratings have only went in the toilet since they started being featured. It sucks.

you're joking. Women's wrestling is the best part of the product. Diva's era was the worst. They got women that can work.

 

[Small Town Andrew]

you're joking. Women's wrestling is the best part of the product. Diva's era was the worst. They got women that can work.

They have awful mic skills, terrible acting, boring wrestling. If they were so great ratings would be up since they are featured for half of the show now. Women for the most part cant punch, cant talk, and wont sell unless they are tits and ass. Back in the attitude era they used them perfect.

 

[Peli]

They have awful mic skills, terrible acting, boring wrestling. If they were so great ratings would be up since they are featured for half of the show now. Women for the most part cant punch, cant talk, and wont sell unless they are tits and ass. Back in the attitude era they used them perfect.

Agree to disagree. I don't see any evidence for what you're saying. If anything, ratings are down because the shows are overproduced!

 

[D.R.H.]

you're joking. Women's wrestling is the best part of the product. Diva's era was the worst. They got women that can work.

The over whelming majority of women's matches suck. They're slow, awkward and sloppy. Most of them can't even hit the ropes right, let alone actual moves. It really shows how far wrestling has come that so many fans watch that shit and actually think it's good and the women talented.