Wrestling, Scoring & how it poisons MMA

Kaioken x 10 said:
Guillotines are very difficult, and failed guillotines lead to ending up on your back, giving up points to the opponent. Thus, guillotines are far more high-risk (seeing as how failed TD attempts have virtually no downside).
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TDs aren't easy either

Ask King Mo how things went against Feijao
 
A takedown that leads to nothing shouldnt count for much, but what about octagon control? So often fans and judges think that the more aggressive fighter moving forward constantly is winning the fight. I honestly think this is a bigger flaw in the judging system
 
Alright, fulfilled my quarterly check in of the heavies to remind myself of why I don't come here regularly.

Thank Jeebus that's over.
 
Emjay said:
Risk vs reward
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I mean, I've already discussed that. There are common positions from which a takedown is very low risk/very high reward, and we see it all the time. That's why it's often talked about as a problem
 
Kaioken x 10 said:
I mean, I've already discussed that. There are common positions from which a takedown is very low risk/very high reward, and we see it all the time. That's why it's often talked about as a problem
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It's never talked about in specifics. People just whine about TDs
 
Emjay said:
It's never talked about in specifics. People just whine about TDs
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Just because some people can't articulate what they're upset about, doesn't mean they don't have a legitimate case
 
I think a reversal should count as much as a takedown. A takedown with only laying on and no damage only counts as a takedown. And a take down with ground and pound means more points. For example I would have given Condit more points that Hendricks for the damage he inflicted after being taken down and his ability to get up because Hendricks had no GNP.
 
Yeah, all those fights...

kyung ho kang vs chico camus
kyung ho kang vs alex caceres
takeya mizugaki vs chris cariaso
riki fukuda vs nick ring
Mac danzig vs Takanori gomi
Jacare vs rockhold
Caraway vs Mizugaki

guys winning decisions in close fights simply because of takedowns. ridiculous!
 
USAWrestler209 said:
In wrestling if you go for 100 takedowns, and 99 are stuffed, but the last one gets through. You win the match 2-0 (collegiate aswell as freestyle now) Also the guy shooting 100 takedowns is the agressor, and the defender is warned for stalling, possibly giving the agressor 1 point for inactivite offence (so that you cant just be ahead on points and play pure defence)

the thing about wrestling also is that, a takedown is scored once position is settled, not just bringing your opponent to the mat. Alot of counted takedowns in mma wouldn't score in wrestling due to a srcamble of no settling position. If you get up from the ground in wrestling and escape your opponents control you get half as many points in colligiate wrestling than you do for a takedown.

You have to see what the Wrestling points are based off to see how they are sort of seen in mma.
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This is an excellent illustration of the "spirit" behind TDs/TDD. The "settled position" should be the criteria in MMA Judging; most Judges haven't a clue of this concept.
 
Takedowns are very easy to notice for the judge, they stand out.

The real problem is judges have a problem differentiating between a meaningful takedown that wins fights (GSP) and a completely meaningless takedown that changes nothing about the fight at all or is used just for stalling and grinding out a boring decision by just laying on the other dude the entire fight without doing any damage.
 
Kaioken x 10 said:
Just because some people can't articulate what they're upset about, doesn't mean they don't have a legitimate case
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I think it does in some cases.

If you can't express yourself then how do we know if YOU really know what you're upset about?
 
The only solution is "Do not award points for takedowns at all". Only award points on what happens after the takedown.

- If the fighter taking down his opponent doesn't do anything with it, no point.
- If the fighter taking down his opponent takes advantage of his position by beating him or attempting subs, then awards points for that and ONLY that
 
Emjay said:
I think it does in some cases.

If you can't express yourself then how do we know if YOU really know what you're upset about?
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Ah, but what if you think you know, but in reality, you don't really know! You know?
 
Yeah um the most notorious winner of robberies in our time is Leonard Garcia. Nick Ring has also built that reputation.

It happens in all kinds of ways from all kinds of styles. So stop being so butthurt about it.
 
whats so good about a takedown?

you are physically overpowering and forcing your opponent to the ground, asserting dominance
 
chickenlip said:
A takedown that leads to nothing shouldnt count for much, but what about octagon control? So often fans and judges think that the more aggressive fighter moving forward constantly is winning the fight. I honestly think this is a bigger flaw in the judging system
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They often give the aggressive fighter the round simply because that's what people want to see. The recent Davis Machida fight was a great example. Some of the rounds were inconclusive to say the least.... so the judges awarded them to Davis because he was moving foward the whole time.

If both guys were fighting like Davis, there would be a hell of a lot more to judge. If both guys were back-pedalling like Machida then you'd have the shittest fight ever. Fighting off the back foot is all very well and good if you're landing, but if you're not (like Machida wasn't a lot of the time in that fight), then you're avoiding contact which is technically against the rules, and thus you lose the round.
 
Just came top say 'I agree with Emjay'.

Jimbob also made a good point about the Davis-Machida fight.

If TD's are not to be scored, should we also stop scoring failed sub attempts?
 
Jet40 said:
Just came top say 'I agree with Emjay'.

Jimbob also made a good point about the Davis-Machida fight.

If TD's are not to be scored, should we also stop scoring failed sub attempts?
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I would leave everything else as is, I just wouldn't look at the takedown itself.

Scoring-wise, just pretend it never happened (unless it's a slam).
 
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