Wrestling, Scoring & how it poisons MMA

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by PowermmA, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. PowermmA

    PowermmA Purple Belt

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    How many times have we seen a ridiculous decision win because of a takedown? What the hell is so special about a takedown if the fighter pops right back up? Its a massive blemish on this great sport of ours how judges can be swayed from a shitty tackle. If a fighter is taken down, controlled and inflicts damage, then sure. BUT NOT IF ANYTHING HAPPENS AND THE FIGHTER GETS BACK UP WITH EASE.
    Shouldn't a fighter DEFENDING the takedown get awarded? Definitely. A defended attempted takedown should be equivalent to a takedown.

    Anyways I think its a poison in judging mma.

    What say you?
     
  2. MilesAbove

    MilesAbove Gold Belt

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    I mostly just know that because of the set up currently in the UFC/MMA in America, fighters are looking to simply get a last-second takedown in a round. The sport is being marginalized and instead of fighting, people are simply loophole advantages.

    The amazing part to me is that the judges continually reward people who get takedowns with no control and no effort to actually finish the fight.

    I have zero problem with a man grabbing a takedown with 45 seconds left if he thinks its an opportunity to GnP or sub a tired opponent (even if he ultimately fails). I f#cking hate when a guy clearly just wants the points and just holds guard... and somehow is given a round for it.
     
  3. goforthefinish

    goforthefinish Banned Banned

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    Im more concerned with the last 30 second surge in a round being counted even more.
     
  4. Emjay

    Emjay And again and again and again and ag.. zzzzzzzz

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    lol @ "this great sport of ours"

    That gets me every time

    It's a sport (sort of). There's offense and there's defense. A TD is an offensive maneuver. Due to the inherent risk of going for a TD, a successful attempt should be rewarded positively.
     
  5. PowermmA

    PowermmA Purple Belt

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    Couldnt agree more.
     
  6. PowermmA

    PowermmA Purple Belt

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    Is it not a great sport? Is it not ours, competitors and fans?
    Do you think 1 takedown is better than 5 defended?
     
  7. Emjay

    Emjay And again and again and again and ag.. zzzzzzzz

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    1 landed punch is better than 5 blocked?
     
  8. Magnum1978

    Magnum1978 Silver Belt

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    Getting back to your feet is as risky as a takedown. If a fighter wants to have the fight on the ground and gets it there, he should be rewarded for that. Just as, if a fighter wants it back on the feet and he gets it back there, he should be rewarded equally.

    Just judge each exchange in terms of NET RESULT without any bias for position. I.e Jones taking down Gus and doing nothing on the ground before Gus returned to his feet - that is a net result of NOTHING, therefore it that exchange is scored equally for both fighters. A takedown is really just a means to an end, like good footwork, getting a high guard, double underhooks, or breaking posture. A takedown (alone) just before the end of the round, has little to zero 'net result' so should be rewarded as such.

    Its not rocket science, but unfortunately 'position and control' is often vastly overvalued to the point where some fighters are happy to 'take position and run down the clock' doing little else but hold the position (even being on the defensive by defending sub attempts and/or strikes).

    Its a blanket 'on top = winning' mindset thing, but hopefully will change with time.
     
  9. PowermmA

    PowermmA Purple Belt

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    Definitely not. Or kick, elbow or knee for that matter. Good try though.

    I see what you mean by an offensive play should be awarded. I just think one takedown with no offense is not enough to steal a round, it should be pretty much be like a strike landed
     
  10. USAWrestler209

    USAWrestler209 Yellow Belt

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    In wrestling if you go for 100 takedowns, and 99 are stuffed, but the last one gets through. You win the match 2-0 (collegiate aswell as freestyle now) Also the guy shooting 100 takedowns is the agressor, and the defender is warned for stalling, possibly giving the agressor 1 point for inactivite offence (so that you cant just be ahead on points and play pure defence)

    the thing about wrestling also is that, a takedown is scored once position is settled, not just bringing your opponent to the mat. Alot of counted takedowns in mma wouldn't score in wrestling due to a srcamble of no settling position. If you get up from the ground in wrestling and escape your opponents control you get half as many points in colligiate wrestling than you do for a takedown.

    You have to see what the Wrestling points are based off to see how they are sort of seen in mma.
     
  11. Kaioken x 10

    Kaioken x 10 Brown Belt

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    This analogy is a slight non-sequitur.

    A punch inflicts damage. Blocking punches does not. Blocking 5 punches should maybe count for something, but not that much. However, a takedown is an attempt at controlling where the fight takes place. Defending a takedown successfully is succeeding at controlling where the fight takes place, so it should count similarly.

    Now I understand not counting TDD as MUCH as a takedown, but it should be fairly significant - like maybe a half-takedown or at least a quarter-takedown. Otherwise you get guys just spamming takedown attempts until they get one, going like 2 for 15 but still winning the fight just by having a takedown in 2 of 3 rounds.
     
  12. Emjay

    Emjay And again and again and again and ag.. zzzzzzzz

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    High level, they're both viewed as offensive maneuvers

    Again, taking the risk into account when going for a TD, a successful attempt has to carry significant weight
     
  13. Kaioken x 10

    Kaioken x 10 Brown Belt

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    This point also doesn't quite translate. In wrestling, the whole goal is to wrestle. The whole point is to get the takedown (at least from standing). If one guy goes 1 for 100, and the other guy goes 0 for 0, it's understandable that the guy who did something, anything wins. The other guy wasn't even trying.
     
  14. Kaioken x 10

    Kaioken x 10 Brown Belt

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    This makes sense when you're talking about shooting in from distance. But not when we're talking about a guy clinching against the fence and dropping for a double, in a position where the opponent can basically do nothing but defend or try short punches (as knees, kicks, etc. aren't allowed) - these types of much lower risk situations.
     
  15. shadownero

    shadownero White Belt

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    Spamming takedowns lol.

    It takes more effort to take someone down and on that basis it should be worth more in the eyes of the judges than strikes. I don't understand what you mean by getting right back up though... Most people when they say that are actually complaining about their favorite fighters inability to get up which is solely his fault by the way.

    Stuffing a takedown is the same as blocking strikes, your reward is that you don't get hit or taken down, it tires your opponent out and your opponent doesn't get points for trying.
     
  16. Emjay

    Emjay And again and again and again and ag.. zzzzzzzz

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    Guillotines happen
     
  17. shadownero

    shadownero White Belt

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    I have no idea why people don't hammer the attacker to the body when they are bent over in that kind of position... It will make the mother fucker give up on that take down real fast... :eek: that is the face of a man being punched in the side with his arms fully extended away from his body.
     
  18. PowermmA

    PowermmA Purple Belt

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    Seems like we got some really knowledgeable people here on wrestling which is great cause I dont know a lot about it (wrestling is pretty much non existent in Australia). So thanks for the info.

    Still scoring wrestling in mma sucks balls and needs to be changed
     
  19. Kaioken x 10

    Kaioken x 10 Brown Belt

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    Guillotines are very difficult, and failed guillotines lead to ending up on your back, giving up points to the opponent. Thus, guillotines are far more high-risk (seeing as how failed TD attempts have virtually no downside).
     
  20. Slick_36

    Slick_36 Bad Man from Borger, Texas

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    A takedown shouldn't count for any points if there's no damage made. But if a round is dead even in striking, and you have to find an advantage to give the round, control is one of them and the takedown can give them the round. But takedowns and control really should be much much lower priority than damage done.

    But this isn't exclusive to MMA. Ray Leonard used to end rounds in flurries to sway judges opinions.
     

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