Wrestlers please read

[Tony Manifold]

Not sure Greco Roman is as amazing as everyone feels it is in MMA. I did Freestyle/Folkstyle but as I watched Greco it feels very slowed down compared to other forms. I think there is a higher intensity and control that comes with Freestlye/Folkstyle that Greco doesn't use.

Now I understand how good upper body strength and quick trunk movement could be valuable for MMA but it really isn't used in MMA more successfully than regular shot takedowns.

Becuase clinching against the cage is such a huge part of MMA. Watch wrestlers with weak or no clinch game when they press someone against the cage. they violate just about every rule of wrestling trying to get at the legs. Watch Randy, Jon Jones or Matt Linland against the cage and you will see the difference.

the other part of it is that the addition of kicks and punches change the distance involved in the shot. Early on when guys like Randleman, Coleman and Kerr were the big names, guys didn't have the TDD to stop them even if they did shoot from far away. Now shooting from outside is almost impossible. Punching or kicking into that perfect range to shoot but not so far as to end up in a clinch is hard. This is one of the reason's GSP's wrestling is so good because he can get into that range before he shoots.


Now for the original question. Freestyle guys will tend to be better wrestlers because they will tend to be guys that have wrestled internationally. But beyond that it is more a matter of who's individual style works best for MMA. Josh Koscheck has one of the best college wrestling pedigree's in MMA but both GSP and Fitch took Alves down at will when he couldn't.

 

[Lapu-Lapu]

You left out the part that said Cael Sanderson was SLOPPY before he went to freestyle.

I left it out because I didn't agree with it.

GSP is world class mma wrestler because no one in his weight class is better than him in mma wrestling. He doesn't need to compete to show that he is good in mma.

And what's this punching BS? It's mma of course you have to set up shot's with you're punches because no one is going to hand fight with you.

Sorry, I figured this discussion was just on his wrestling credentials.

 

[Nick Kilian]

Becuase clinching against the cage is such a huge part of MMA. Watch wrestlers with weak or no clinch game when they press someone against the cage. they violate just about every rule of wrestling trying to get at the legs. Watch Randy, Jon Jones or Matt Linland against the cage and you will see the difference.

the other part of it is that the addition of kicks and punches change the distance involved in the shot. Early on when guys like Randleman, Coleman and Kerr were the big names, guys didn't have the TDD to stop them even if they did shoot from far away. Now shooting from outside is almost impossible. Punching or kicking into that perfect range to shoot but not so far as to end up in a clinch is hard. This is one of the reason's GSP's wrestling is so good because he can get into that range before he shoots.


Now for the original question. Freestyle guys will tend to be better wrestlers because they will tend to be guys that have wrestled internationally. But beyond that it is more a matter of who's individual style works best for MMA. Josh Koscheck has one of the best college wrestling pedigree's in MMA but both GSP and Fitch took Alves down at will when he couldn't.

The question is was GSP Greco and clinch work? He was using FolkStyle/FreeStyle. Clinch work is really easy for wrestlers even if they are not Greco because we do spend time drilling for position and doing Greco moves as well. This is also compared to non wrestlers so I think it doesn't matter anyways. For MMA I truly believe the pace non Greco wrestlers can put on people make them more formidable.

You also have to think Is it easier to take someone down when striking with someone by dropping down and getting a leg or trying to get into someone and clinch? Keep in mind they are throwing bombs. There is the knee to the face but if timed off of punches and kicks I think a FreeStyle/Folkstyle takedown attempt will yield better results If the person you are initiating with is constantly moving around.

As for as cage side clinch I do pretty well with Grabbing single,doubles,ankles, and firemans. also without as much energy consumption than trying to bear hug or lateral throw.

 

[BruceLeeMMA]

Seriously? I feel that folkstyle guys would do even better if this was back in MMA> Yeah sure you would have some slop get caught an punished but I think you would see far more guys use the pin to keep the guy down while they maneuvered to strike the head with knees.

Hell didn't coleman knee his way to a Pride title back in the day?

Coleman was extremely lucky.

He faced Shoji in the first round.
Then he didn't even have to fight Fujita in the 2nd round because Fujita's corner through in the towel at the beginning of the fight. (Fujita had injured his knee after beating Mark Kerr).

Then in the final he had to face a tired Igor Vovchanchyan (who had just fought Gary Goodridge and Sakuraba).

 

[BruceLeeMMA]

The question is was GSP Greco and clinch work? He was using FolkStyle/FreeStyle. Clinch work is really easy for wrestlers even if they are not Greco because we do spend time drilling for position and doing Greco moves as well. This is also compared to non wrestlers so I think it doesn't matter anyways. For MMA I truly believe the pace non Greco wrestlers can put on people make them more formidable.

You also have to think Is it easier to take someone down when striking with someone by dropping down and getting a leg or trying to get into someone and clinch? Keep in mind they are throwing bombs. There is the knee to the face but if timed off of punches and kicks I think a FreeStyle/Folkstyle takedown attempt will yield better results If the person you are initiating with is constantly moving around.

As for as cage side clinch I do pretty well with Grabbing single,doubles,ankles, and firemans. also without as much energy consumption than trying to bear hug or lateral throw.

GSP is actually Soviet Style Wrestling.

His coach is Victor Zilberman who was on the former Soviet Union Wrestling Team and National Champion.

 

[schico23]

I have a few things to add...yes international freestyle wrestlers are going to be better at some things, but you cant dismiss folkstyle. The main difference i've found between wrestling with great freestylers and great folkstylers is the ability to scramble. In freestyle scrambling is a little more discouraged because of fear of giving up back exposure to keep from getting taken down, so most freestylers instincts are to give up a takedown once they are beat and to defend from bottom till it is stood up. Folkstylers are much better at scrambling, with grambys, roll throughs, switches, and things of the sort. If you do these things in freestyle you are much more likely to give up 2 pts for back exposure, so after time you lose that scrambling skill.

Also controlling an opponent in folkstyle is MUCH more difficult becuase of the difference in top position. You are actively trying to ride and control their body as they are trying to actively get out. As opposed to freestyle where par tarre is going to be the only mat wrestling. You don't have to be any good at controlling your opponent and riding them in order to be a great freestyler.

Each have their merits, but to definitively say freestylers are better becasue they have "olympic medals" is completely false. Freestyle and folkstyle are two completely different styles. I have seen olympic wrestlers win medals based solely on having an amazing gutwrench or leg lace. Does that apply to mma? I don't believe so. It is subjective, but to dismiss college wrestlers cause they didn't go to the olympics is completely wrong. Its a different sport. I was really bad from par tarre which would be my downfall in all the national freestyle tournaments in college. In terms of pure takedowns and top control (which i think would be most beneficial in mma) I would own many of the people who beat me, but i couldn't get taken down once, because if i did i would get turned like a little bitch haha. This is the case with many freestylers vs folkstylers. That par tarre position is very difficult to master and makes the differerence between good freestylers and great freestylers, but i don't think that skill is important in mma

 

[fourfif**]

I have a few things to add...yes international freestyle wrestlers are going to be better at some things, but you cant dismiss folkstyle. The main difference i've found between wrestling with great freestylers and great folkstylers is the ability to scramble. In freestyle scrambling is a little more discouraged because of fear of giving up back exposure to keep from getting taken down, so most freestylers instincts are to give up a takedown once they are beat and to defend from bottom till it is stood up. Folkstylers are much better at scrambling, with grambys, roll throughs, switches, and things of the sort. If you do these things in freestyle you are much more likely to give up 2 pts for back exposure, so after time you lose that scrambling skill.

Also controlling an opponent in folkstyle is MUCH more difficult becuase of the difference in top position. You are actively trying to ride and control their body as they are trying to actively get out. As opposed to freestyle where par tarre is going to be the only mat wrestling. You don't have to be any good at controlling your opponent and riding them in order to be a great freestyler.

Each have their merits, but to definitively say freestylers are better becasue they have "olympic medals" is completely false. Freestyle and folkstyle are two completely different styles. I have seen olympic wrestlers win medals based solely on having an amazing gutwrench or leg lace. Does that apply to mma? I don't believe so. It is subjective, but to dismiss college wrestlers cause they didn't go to the olympics is completely wrong. Its a different sport. I was really bad from par tarre which would be my downfall in all the national freestyle tournaments in college. In terms of pure takedowns and top control (which i think would be most beneficial in mma) I would own many of the people who beat me, but i couldn't get taken down once, because if i did i would get turned like a little bitch haha. This is the case with many freestylers vs folkstylers. That par tarre position is very difficult to master and makes the differerence between good freestylers and great freestylers, but i don't think that skill is important in mma

great post.

I will say that there is a pretty big difference in the clinch when talking about folk or freestyle vs greco. you know right away you're in a world of trouble when someone with a greco background has you in the clinch.

 

[GBDaz]

Freestyle rules imo however the rules are too much like judo now too many points given out for any form of a throw or lift, and letting people start with the leg when nothing is happening is bogus, the first to initiate the attacks should always get the nod, the rules are just tailor made for russians, freestyle should be about leg attacks. Rant over heres a vid of freestyle perfection from Heydari Iranian wrestling legend.

 

[juji gatame**]

Wow I'm surprised the "lol all wrestlers lay n pray" retards aren't around here. Some good discussion going on for sure.

 

[georgejjr]

Current MMA rules favor folkstyle heavily because there is no strikes to the head of "grounded" opponent with the knees or kicks.

Actually allowing knees to the head of a grounded opponent would be a godsend for wrestlers (and judoka). Get in side control or north-south, and rain knees to the top or side of the skull until the person is out.

The reason knees aren't allowed to the head of grounded opponents is because of that, not because its an advantage to wrestlers who miss their shot.

In general, the quality of international wrestling is higher than folkstyle simply because its a wider range of competitors: you have the best from every country in the world, not just one country (the US). But that's not a question of style, just of numbers of competitors. If one sport has 100,000 competitors and a similar sport has 1,000,000 competitors, the chances are that 10 out of the 11 best come from the one with the 1,000,000 competitors (numbers just off the top of my head). Reverse those same numbers so more do folkstyle than freestyle and the situation reverses with it.

GSP has said himself a number of times that he isn't a world class wrestler, he's a world class MMA fighter. He's considered dropping MMA and concentrating on wrestling for a couple of years to get into the Olympics (the definition of a world class wrestler for his style, which is freestyle), but he's the first to say he's not there yet. His wrestling is amazing for MMA, but that's quite different than wrestling for wrestling competitions.

In terms of what's best for MMA, it seems to vary with the wrestler. Some have done very well with a freestyle base (mainly GSP's), some with Greco (Henderson and Couture), some with folkstyle (Hughes and Lesnar). But in all cases, they do well because they've been able to modify it for MMA; none of them works just out of the box, some assembly is required to make them fit MMA rules.

 

[knoxpk]

Actually allowing knees to the head of a grounded opponent would be a godsend for wrestlers (and judoka). Get in side control or north-south, and rain knees to the top or side of the skull until the person is out.

The reason knees aren't allowed to the head of grounded opponents is because of that, not because its an advantage to wrestlers who miss their shot.

In general, the quality of international wrestling is higher than folkstyle simply because its a wider range of competitors: you have the best from every country in the world, not just one country (the US). But that's not a question of style, just of numbers of competitors. If one sport has 100,000 competitors and a similar sport has 1,000,000 competitors, the chances are that 10 out of the 11 best come from the one with the 1,000,000 competitors (numbers just off the top of my head). Reverse those same numbers so more do folkstyle than freestyle and the situation reverses with it.

GSP has said himself a number of times that he isn't a world class wrestler, he's a world class MMA fighter. He's considered dropping MMA and concentrating on wrestling for a couple of years to get into the Olympics (the definition of a world class wrestler for his style, which is freestyle), but he's the first to say he's not there yet. His wrestling is amazing for MMA, but that's quite different than wrestling for wrestling competitions.

In terms of what's best for MMA, it seems to vary with the wrestler. Some have done very well with a freestyle base (mainly GSP's), some with Greco (Henderson and Couture), some with folkstyle (Hughes and Lesnar). But in all cases, they do well because they've been able to modify it for MMA; none of them works just out of the box, some assembly is required to make them fit MMA rules.

Very intelligent and well said post!

 

[Rod1]

Actually allowing knees to the head of a grounded opponent would be a godsend for wrestlers (and judoka). Get in side control or north-south, and rain knees to the top or side of the skull until the person is out.

First you have to get the takedown.

Im not saying it would be against wrestlers, it would work against BAD wrestlers who can't take people down.

The reason knees aren't allowed to the head of grounded opponents is because of that, not because its an advantage to wrestlers who miss their shot.

Watch any of Crocop's HLs, if he was on the UFC against Fujita, Fujita would had managed to get the TD or at least no get a knee on the face.

Wat?

How do current rules favor folkstyle because of no knees on the ground?

You do know Cecil Peoples of all people scored it for Munoz so it doesn't count right?

Because wrestlers with bad takedowns can still wrestler against superior strikers or at least stall.

 

[CyberFreq]

No, the current rules 'favor' folkstyle because Folk guys are more comfortable shooting in and trying desperately for that TD, knees dragging and all. Free and Greco guys are more comfortable off the clinch so even though the opportunity is there for them to shoot (and it's not too bad an idea for them to do so) they are less likely to do so.

Also, superior strikers - even though they may not have the most offensive wrestling - will more than likely work on defensive wrestling enough to avoid that being outworked on the ground thing. Look at Chuck and Cro Cop. They had nasty sprawls and worked hard to get back up on the feet - where they were more comfortable - whenever they did get dumped on their back.

 

[knoxpk]

No, the current rules 'favor' folkstyle because Folk guys are more comfortable shooting in and trying desperately for that TD, knees dragging and all. Free and Greco guys are more comfortable off the clinch so even though the opportunity is there for them to shoot (and it's not too bad an idea for them to do so) they are less likely to do so.

Also, superior strikers - even though they may not have the most offensive wrestling - will more than likely work on defensive wrestling enough to avoid that being outworked on the ground thing. Look at Chuck and Cro Cop. They had nasty sprawls and worked hard to get back up on the feet - where they were more comfortable - whenever they did get dumped on their back.

I still dont understand the knees on the ground favors non wrestlers.

Sure I concede, if you get caught on the way in it is lights out. I can even give you that if a guy get stuck on all 4's with a guy on top it is an issue.

But I cannot understand why we would think A) that folk wrestlers dont know how to takedown off a clinch or B) what makes people think that a wrestler cannot get someone down in order to knee them in the skull.

Folkstyle wrestling indeed has most of the takedowns from practically all the set ups and tie ups of the international styles. Only they have a more controlling ground game.

The difference may be the actual scoring techniques used in FS/Greco. Bigger throws (usually off a clinch) equals bigger points so perhaps more emphasis on the clinch in FS/Greco both offensively and defensively.

In Folk the points are the same, throw or leg attack it's 2 points for the takedown.

Incidentally most of the "bigger" folkstyle guys wrestle from the clinch ALOT! Far more than the lighter guys anyway. The techniques are there, it just depends on how you use them. I have seen 140lb guys almost all clinch type attacks and then I see the speedy shooters too. Again, all the techniques and set ups exist in folk.

 

[skey91***]

Sure all the wrestling threads pop up when I'm not around.

Everything has been covered I would just be beatin a dead horse.

Folk and Free guys also work from the clinch, Folk is control, free is flash.

Damnit

 

[jarra22]

Folkstyle is better cuz i wrestle it

 

[Rod1]

I still dont understand the knees on the ground favors non wrestlers.

Because it improves the ability to attack a downed opponent. It not an absolute about who would help.

Basically it would

Help strikers with good TDD and groundgame and help good wrestlers, it would be bad against Bad wrestlers and strikers with no TDD.

Sure I concede, if you get caught on the way in it is lights out. I can even give you that if a guy get stuck on all 4's with a guy on top it is an issue.

Shooting becomes more dangerous, if you shoot like about 75% of the UFC right now and someone sprawls you are bound in your 4s while the other guy its perfectly set to punish your head.

In PRIDE less people when for really low and lame shoots, because of that, watch Crocop vs Fujita.

But I cannot understand why we would think A) that folk wrestlers dont know how to takedown off a clinch or B) what makes people think that a wrestler cannot get someone down in order to knee them in the skull.

1.- For the same reason that freestyle doesn't focus on control as much, because there is a limiting factor in time that its being trained and the effectiveness of that aspect.

2.- Nobody is saying that wrestlers won't benefit from the rules, nobody is saying that a good wrestler should lose, the beef is against bad wrestlers shooting down good strikers with good TDD.

Folkstyle wrestling indeed has most of the takedowns from practically all the set ups and tie ups of the international styles. Only they have a more controlling ground game.

Exactly, so you see more sloppy TDs from Folkstyles as you see less control from freestyle.

 

[fan of fanboys]

My feeling is that over the course of an MMA career, Greco or Judo is the safest most effective takedown style because you can get into the clinch without compromising yourself to knees, kicks or uppercuts. There is alot of longevity in this style

Lowering your level seems to expose your head/face to knees and kicks and percentages say that eventually something unlucky will happen the more you fight.

Double/Single Leg fighters:
Mark Kerr : Self DDTed by Yamamoto on a double.
Coleman: gassed vs Mo Smith, RHK KTFO by Pete Williams
Randleman: not sure when it happened but he has declined rapidly
Matt Hughes: highly succesful career but ate some knees and kicks from Thiago Alves.
Ricardo Arona
Ricco Rodriquez

Greco/Judo fighters
Fedor
Randy Couture
Dan Henderson
Matt Lindland
Yoshida
Kaz Nakamura


It will be interesting what will happen to GSP and Lesnar over their MMA career (who are primarily double/single leg guys).

The ideal for short and long term woudl be learn greco from a stand up perspective, in addition to having a great set up for a signle/double and then learn folkstyle for when you get them on the mat.

The diff between gsp and the guys you mentioend above tho is 1) he was not a wrestler who started mma. he was a fighter who learned to wrestler 2) he sets up his take downs with his strikes. while he may not liek striking since the serra fight he is a very solid stand up fighter.

 

[Fedor Fan 189]

the worst shot has no consequences if you cant knee an opponent in the face...example takanori gomi vs ralph gracie