Wrestlers please read

[JZMinotauro]

Why is it that wrestling is arguably the most dominant art in mma (with bjj of course) yet people don't know anything about it?

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f61/daniel-cormier-wins-again-1st-kotc-1315573/index9.html

Both styles incoporate control, Folkstyle just emphasizes it more then Freestyle. International wrestler would wreck collegiate wrestlers weather its folkstyle rules or freestyle rules and you know it. The best wrestlers in the world come from russia,iran,georgia, black sea nations, cuba, ect. Folkstyle wrestlers become better wrestlers if they compete internationally. Cormier was a Folkstyle wrestler himself..So I don't know what you are talking about. International wresters>D1 collegiate wrestlers PERIOD.

This is my argument to you. A wrestler who wrestled in college and goes out and gets international experience as a freestyler is a better wrestler then any college D-1 Champ, and you can't get to admit that. One of the best wrestlers of our time is Cael Sanderson, yes he was a D-1 champ, but I gaurantee you that he would beat any D-1 champ for the last decade because of his international experience. Internnational wrestlers> d-1 wrestlers because their technique is sharper even though the 2 styles have different techniques due to strategy. You can compare the international wrestlers to College wrestlers.

If you have a folkstyle wrestler, and goes out and to international competitions and works on his sprawl, he may not be able to do granby rolls, but you can do carries and other crap I can't remember cause I havn't wrestle since I was a teenager. But for you to say that somebody can't improve techniques from freestyle and convert it to folkstyle is disingenuous. Bones is greco, and GSP is not a wrestler. Why you think Rashad said that Mo got the best wrestling in MMA, because he competed more recently and has more polished skills then a GSP. Please tell me you are not serious. Do you think GSP is world class?:icon_lol:

when you are in a tie with an oppenent in freestyle, that consists of body control, good positioning on your feet. If a folkstyle wrestler goes against a good freestyle wrestler, who is going to dominate on the feet, I'll say a international wrestler would. This is why I think freestyle is better for MMA, better wrestling skills on the feet, all the grinding on the ground is folkstyle and that doesn't pay the bills. Doesn't a match start on the feet. International wrestlers>D-1 wrestlers, International wrestlers better for MMA, and pays the bills.

Look Folkstyle rules benefits the wrestler with inferior skills and bigger lungs. A skilled Folkstyle wrestler would tire out his oponent and go to work. A freestyle wrestler would whoop a folkstyle wrestler's ass if he tries to shoot because of the superior body positioning and better defensive skills on the feet, also better shots and body control on the feet. A smart folkstyle wrestler would train in both Greco and Freestyle to give them the edge on the feet and finish off fights quickly instead of just grinding out scores. Cael Sanderson used to have sloppy shots until he became proficient in freestyle.

Folkstyle is only done in the United States, and I don't remember the U.S. being a dominant force in the Olympics for freestyle or Greco. Bones is a JUCO Greco champ, he is not world class like Chael Sonnen who is superior to Jones in wrestling. GSP is a grappler(submission wrestling) King Mo is not a grappler and GSP is a superior grappler to King Mo, but if they went head to head, GSP WILL NOT TAKE MO OR BEN ASKREN DOWN PERIOD !! STOP SMOKING!!! Mo's and Askren's hips are too heavy and has way more wrestling techique then GSP. You are just a GSP fanboy so let me say this GSP BEING A WORLD CLASS WRESTLER IS A JOKE Now all you see now is U.S. Wrestlers who only knows folkstyle to dominate MMA, if you get a good group of freestyle wrestlers-I guarantee you the notion of folkstyle wrestlers superiority will be changed. Which world class freestyle wrestler has GSP fought? oh the answer is none. Folkstyle wrestler skills on the feet sucks, all their skills is no the ground for ground body control.

WHERE DO PEOPLE COME UP WITH THIS STUFF???

What is with the total lack of appreciation for folkstyle wrestling and why do people think that freestyle wrestling, where you have to expose your opponents back to the mat, is so good for mma?

(we were discussing why folkstyle is beter for mma)

Look I can deal with discussion, but why do people pretend to know about this? If one made a mistake about bjj or boxing/kickboxing, this guy would have been torn up immediately, yet there is no controversy over this matter, so people feel fit to make things up to fit their agenda. WHY??????

People out there actually believe this, come one a JUCO greco wrestler? Cael Sanderson is sloppy?

 

[CaliKid45]

folkstyle is more controleed based which is better for mma look at the best wrestlers in mma their all folk. Freestyle is a totally different animal, different rules and moves

 

[td82394]

I had Greco figured to be the best wrestling style actually. Maybe I'm biased.

 

[CaliKid45]

I had Greco figured to be the best wrestling style actually. Maybe I'm biased.

defintly not you cant shoot in greco so you rarely sprawl. you dont ever use legs becasue your not aloud to and thats bullshit (biased im a legrunner). but for mma it def isnt unless your focus is wallnstall

 

[knoxpk]

We have spoken about this often. Freestyle and greco is alot like judo without the gi in international comps. The focus is more based on takedowns, throws and back exposure as opposed to control.

This is evidenced by the scoring and the limited time to work on the mat.

IIRC Oklahoma state picked up a Russian wrestler that trained with one of the worlds greatest wrestler and by the logic you quoted he should have walked over the competition on his way to a title. He didn't win.

“People look at wrestling differently (in Russia),” said Alan Gelogaev, who will be a junior at Oklahoma State in 2010-11.

Born in Chechneya and raised in Moscow, the NCAA All-American at 197 pounds last season got an inside look at Russian greatness, training with legendary Bouvaisa Saitiev before coming to the United States in 2006.

“It’s much more popular as far as sports go. It gets a lot more attention. When you are young you hear about all the great Russian champions so it makes you want to be like them. (The wrestlers) are treated differently compared to (the U.S.). I don’t think it is as easy to wrestle (in the U.S.) after you get out of college. I don’t think there is as much support as there is in Russia and the (old Soviet Union republics).”

Master technician Saitiev collects third gold medal - USATODAY.com

What you learn AND practice in folk is takedown to control to pin and the counters and escapes to all of the above. You don't have a ref that will save you if you cannot get away, you have to earn it. In international comps, I can stall for 15 seconds and viola, we are back on the feet.

 

[BruceLeeMMA]

I had Greco figured to be the best wrestling style actually. Maybe I'm biased.

My feeling is that over the course of an MMA career, Greco or Judo is the safest most effective takedown style because you can get into the clinch without compromising yourself to knees, kicks or uppercuts. There is alot of longevity in this style

Lowering your level seems to expose your head/face to knees and kicks and percentages say that eventually something unlucky will happen the more you fight.

Double/Single Leg fighters:
Mark Kerr : Self DDTed by Yamamoto on a double.
Coleman: gassed vs Mo Smith, RHK KTFO by Pete Williams
Randleman: not sure when it happened but he has declined rapidly
Matt Hughes: highly succesful career but ate some knees and kicks from Thiago Alves.
Ricardo Arona
Ricco Rodriquez

Greco/Judo fighters
Fedor
Randy Couture
Dan Henderson
Matt Lindland
Yoshida
Kaz Nakamura


It will be interesting what will happen to GSP and Lesnar over their MMA career (who are primarily double/single leg guys).

 

[Rod1]

Current MMA rules favor folkstyle heavily because there is no strikes to the head of "grounded" opponent with the knees or kicks.

Therefore any sloppy folkstyle wrestler can dive head in against pretty much anybody and then "crotch sniff" into safety, if the guy sprawl he can't really do power shots, and since folkstyle is heavy in control, they are hard to reverse.

Basically MMA is turning into,

Shoot if sprawl, crotch sniff and try to work TD from there, get stood up.

Shoot if managed to take takedown, do nothing but pin and pillow fist.


Simply watch Mu

 

[Pahlavan**]

Kamal Shalarous

 

[206warrior]

Kamal Shalarous

His single legs are what I imagine it would look like if God did one. Fucking freak athlete also.

 

[knoxpk]

Current MMA rules favor folkstyle heavily because there is no strikes to the head of "grounded" opponent with the knees or kicks.

Seriously? I feel that folkstyle guys would do even better if this was back in MMA> Yeah sure you would have some slop get caught an punished but I think you would see far more guys use the pin to keep the guy down while they maneuvered to strike the head with knees.

Hell didn't coleman knee his way to a Pride title back in the day?

 

[Lapu-Lapu]

Some of what the guy said wasn't stupid at all. If you wrestle in a international level then you will become a better wrestler. The competition in Russia, Cuba, etc is the best in the world. And GSP isn't a world class wrestler, if opponents didn't have to worry about getting punched in the face then he wouldn't be taken down so many people with ease. Plus, having a good shot doesn't mean you are a great wrestler.

Also, Sakuraba's single leg is the single leg of God.

 

[JZMinotauro]

We have spoken about this often. Freestyle and greco is alot like judo without the gi in international comps. The focus is more based on takedowns, throws and back exposure as opposed to control.

This is evidenced by the scoring and the limited time to work on the mat.

IIRC Oklahoma state picked up a Russian wrestler that trained with one of the worlds greatest wrestler and by the logic you quoted he should have walked over the competition on his way to a title. He didn't win.

 

[JZMinotauro]

Current MMA rules favor folkstyle heavily because there is no strikes to the head of "grounded" opponent with the knees or kicks.

Therefore any sloppy folkstyle wrestler can dive head in against pretty much anybody and then "crotch sniff" into safety, if the guy sprawl he can't really do power shots, and since folkstyle is heavy in control, they are hard to reverse.

Freestyle level is greater than folkstyle, no doubt because of the international level of competition, but folkstyle is currently being favored by US MMA rules. If this was PRIDE or DREAM then Freestyle >> Folkstyle.

Wat?

How do current rules favor folkstyle because of no knees on the ground?

You do know Cecil Peoples of all people scored it for Munoz so it doesn't count right?

 

[Darkhorse]

i'm sure all high level "folkstyle wrestlers" have done a fair amount of freestyle and greco. it's what you do in the off-season.

 

[nni]

Seriously? I feel that folkstyle guys would do even better if this was back in MMA> Yeah sure you would have some slop get caught an punished but I think you would see far more guys use the pin to keep the guy down while they maneuvered to strike the head with knees.

Hell didn't coleman knee his way to a Pride title back in the day?

Right now the rules favour both skilled and unskilled wrestlers. If knees to a downed opponent were allowed, the good wrestlers would be better off and the bad wrestlers would get punished.

Guys that just spam single legs and hold on for dear life are favoured. They know that they can stay there because the other fighter cannot use knees/kicks. All they are doing is exploiting a rule in a way that was not intended.

 

[JZMinotauro]

Some of what the guy said wasn't stupid at all. If you wrestle in a international level then you will become a better wrestler. The competition in Russia, Cuba, etc is the best in the world.

You left out the part that said Cael Sanderson was SLOPPY before he went to freestyle. Explain to me how Sanderson technique becomes good as soon as he becomes a freestyle wrestler when he has worked on his technique his whole life? How about saying a good freestyle wrestler would beat a good folkstyle wrestler at his own game? And no if you wrestle at an international level then you don't get better at folkstyle. Anything he said that was true didn't address my argument.

And GSP isn't a world class wrestler, if opponents didn't have to worry about getting punched in the face then he wouldn't be taken down so many people with ease. Plus, having a good shot doesn't mean you are a great wrestler.

GSP is world class mma wrestler because no one in his weight class is better than him in mma wrestling. He doesn't need to compete to show that he is good in mma.

And what's this punching BS? It's mma of course you have to set up shot's with you're punches because no one is going to hand fight with you.

 

[JZMinotauro]

Right now the rules favour both skilled and unskilled wrestlers. If knees to a downed opponent were allowed, the good wrestlers would be better off and the bad wrestlers would get punished.

Guys that just spam single legs and hold on for dear life are favoured. They know that they can stay there because the other fighter cannot use knees/kicks. All they are doing is exploiting a rule in a way that was not intended.

What does this have to do with folkstyle? And you do know that was just one fight and of all people who scored it, it was Cecil peoples, don't let one fight make you judge all wrestlers and fights.

 

[nni]

What does this have to do with folkstyle?

I was responding to knoxpk's post.

And you do know that was just one fight and of all people who scored it, it was Cecil peoples, don't let one fight make you judge all wrestlers and fights.

This is not based on one fight. It's based on watching multiple fights where bad wrestlers just spam single legs and when defended just hold on. Because the worse thing that can happen to them is being hammerfisted. As long as they have a knee on the ground they are "safe" from knees and kicks.

 

[Nick Kilian]

Not sure Greco Roman is as amazing as everyone feels it is in MMA. I did Freestyle/Folkstyle but as I watched Greco it feels very slowed down compared to other forms. I think there is a higher intensity and control that comes with Freestlye/Folkstyle that Greco doesn't use.

Now I understand how good upper body strength and quick trunk movement could be valuable for MMA but it really isn't used in MMA more successfully than regular shot takedowns.

 

[nni]

GSP is world class mma wrestler because no one in his weight class is better than him in mma wrestling. He doesn't need to compete to show that he is good in mma.

And what's this punching BS? It's mma of course you have to set up shot's with you're punches because no one is going to hand fight with you.

Lapu-Lapu said GSP wasn't a world class wrestler. That's a fact. You refuted him by saying GSP has the best mma wrestling. They are two different things.