Wow, Lloyd Irvin students accused of brutal rape

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This is disgusting but justice will be served. BJJ won't help them much in prison, they better start working on their attacks from turtle guard.
 
100%Jiu-Jitsu said:
These are two separate issues.

I agree that it's totally unwarranted to draw any negative inferences about TLI or its students. Nothing that we've heard suggests that anyone at TLI did anything wrong except for the two alleged rapists. I'm sure that Lloyd and his students are more shocked, horrified, and outraged about this tragedy than anyone.

But unless you believe that the major news outlets involved are just making everything up, it's hard to doubt the rapists' guilt at this point. We don't need to wait for the victim to testify in open court, because we already know her story via the court filings that the media are quoting from. The fact that this was a rape committed by two individuals the victim knew, rather than a stranger, makes it dramatically less likely that they have the wrong men. We haven't seen the surveillance video ourselves, but the police and the DA have, and they're convinced it documents a brutal rape.

What information are you expecting to come out that will exonerate the rapists? What story could they plausibly tell to convince us they are innocent?
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I am not expecting anything just want the whole picture to play out before making judgement either way. Kind of like the christian saying of, Let he without sin cast the first stone" I am not talking about exonerating anyone all I am talking about is prematureness period. Don't take my "innocent until proven guilty" as a exonerating statement that is not the case.
 
Friends don't have consensual sex with their friends and leave them unconscious in a parking lot. Even Johnny Cochran would tell these guys, "you're fucked".

Guilty as charged, next on the docket?
 
Definitely a sickening story and hopefully justice is served. I don't think this really impacts TLI. I'm highly confident Lloyd knew nothing about it and would have stopped it if he could have. Unless/until evidence comes out otherwise, I just don't think it should impact his school.
 
This is why my views are liberal on everything except crime. There's only two things those guys deserve, and both of them are bullets.
 
They must have been pretty intoxicated themselves to think that raping a girl from their own club would be a good idea, even if they happen to be psychopaths. In any event, they can now look forward to many years of nursing their prolapsed rectums in federal, pound-me-in-the-ass prison before eventually being released and not being able to show their faces anywhere in the BJJ community. Way to destroy your good name AND your livelihood. Fucking scumbags.
 
devnull said:
I am not expecting anything just want the whole picture to play out before making judgement either way. Kind of like the christian saying of, Let he without sin cast the first stone" I am not talking about exonerating anyone all I am talking about is prematureness period. Don't take my "innocent until proven guilty" as a exonerating statement that is not the case.
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1) You signed up for this forum TODAY.

2) More than half of your posts are in this thread, arguing "innocent until proven guilty" in one of the most brazen examples of an open-and-shut rape case I've ever heard of.

3) You said it once and had a valid point. We don't know all the facts, but it's pretty hard to imagine anything that would come out that could clear them of these charges.

4) Continuing to belabor the point with repeated posts makes this feel an awful lot like you're trolling....in a thread about a female jiu-jitsu student being brutally raped by her teammates.

So with all due respect, shut your fucking hole newbie.
 
KGB256 said:
1) You signed up for this forum TODAY.

2) More than half of your posts are in this thread, arguing "innocent until proven guilty" in one of the most brazen examples of an open-and-shut rape case I've ever heard of.

3) You said it once and had a valid point. We don't know all the facts, but it's pretty hard to imagine anything that would come out that could clear them of these charges.

4) Continuing to belabor the point with repeated posts makes this feel an awful lot like you're trolling....in a thread about a female jiu-jitsu student being brutally raped by her teammates.

So with all due respect, shut your fucking hole newbie.
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I signed up today to post in the hottest women in BJJ, that's all I have to say about that!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
devnull said:
I am not expecting anything just want the whole picture to play out before making judgement either way. Kind of like the christian saying of, Let he without sin cast the first stone" I am not talking about exonerating anyone all I am talking about is prematureness period. Don't take my "innocent until proven guilty" as a exonerating statement that is not the case.
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Two different concepts. The Christian concept is about being overly judgmental against others when you, yourself, have similar issues. I don't think that you are really saying here "hey....we're all a little rapey....let's not judge here."

The legal concept that you quote also has its own application. Our point here is that this just isn't the right place for this concept. If you just want to say that everyone should wait until everything comes out before they find fault with LI or his team, fine. Using the exact legal term, which simply doesn't apply to civilian conversations, just isn't applicable.
 
I'm not bashing TLI Drew, I just think they should have all been more aware. Lloyd is all about jiujitsu as a martial art, making good humans is a large part of martial art philosophy.

At least they will be going to jail with all the other criminals from Fairfax, which is a bunch of people I definitely wouldn't want to be locked up with.
 
JCASHDAKID said:
:: Puts on Flame Suit:: They are innocent until proven guilty. I know rape is always a touchy subject but I've known Matt since I started bjj and this is really not like him. I say until both sides of the story come and they had their day in courst than no one should pass judgement. I don't remember if anyone remembers a few years ago the incident that happened in Long Island http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/17/hofstra-gang-rape-hoax-st_n_289774.html . One side of the story isn't always the whole story. Their side Her side and the truth. Also as far as a video tape goes I believe that is up to interpretation unless there is sound which I don't believe there is since she said that he said those remarks. At the end of the day my prayers go out to the alleged victim and the two guys in this unfortunate incident.
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Yeah, I guess they just wanted to have sex in a church parking lot and when the girl fell down and hit her head repeatedly, they thought it was fine to leave her there.

100% consensual.
 
Jagcorps_esq said:
Two different concepts. The Christian concept is about being overly judgmental against others when you, yourself, have similar issues. I don't think that you are really saying here "hey....we're all a little rapey....let's not judge here."

The legal concept that you quote also has its own application. Our point here is that this just isn't the right place for this concept. If you just want to say that everyone should wait until everything comes out before they find fault with LI or his team, fine. Using the exact legal term, which simply doesn't apply to civilian conversations, just isn't applicable.
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Your right and thanks and I'm not trolling..
 
Shemhazai said:
They must have been pretty intoxicated themselves to think that raping a girl from their own club would be a good idea, even if they happen to be psychopaths.
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Not so sure. They probably would have got away with it if it wasn't for the cameras which they didn't count on.

In all likelyhood one if not both of them have done this before and got away with it. They knew exactly what they were doing.
 
I know Mateo and he isn't a psychopath or anything like that.

Honestly, we are all jumping over what a newsarticle says and claiming it as 100% fact.

Lets just wait to see what happens in court before we give these two the death penalty.
 
Scenarios in which these guys are innocent, and why we can rule those scenarios out:

Scenario 1: The media could be making all of this information up.

Response: If you categorically refuse to believe information without access to first-hand sources, you will not be able to function in society. The media make lots of mistakes, but the chances of them fabricating this are essentially zero.

Scenario 2: The victim made up the entire incident and nothing happened between her and anyone in the parking garage.

Response: The incident is documented on video and she was found there the night of the incident, with police responding and locking down the area.

Scenario 3: The victim was raped by two men, but they weren't the two TLI students.

Response: She knew the two men, so there isn't the same risk of mistaken identity that exists when someone is attacked by a stranger. Her belief about their identity is also confirmed by video.

Scenario 4: The victim was taken into the parking garage by the two TLI students, and then they took turns having consensual sex with her.

Response: In addition to being contradicted by the victim's statement, this theory is incompatible with the fact that the video shows them leaving her on the ground, where she was found that night when the police responded.

So... Anyone want to toss out another theory for why these guys deserve our prayers?
 
100%Jiu-Jitsu said:
What information are you expecting to come out that will exonerate the rapists? What story could they plausibly tell to convince us they are innocent?
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This is pretty spot on.

And, as a woman who trains regularly the thing that I find most distressing is that they all knew each other from training. That these two men abused the trust of someone that they trained with is just so incredibly disturbing.

Furthermore, while I trust my coach and (most of) the people that I train with, it's sh!t like this that that keeps me wary. As a woman it's frustrating to walk around with so little trust in the people that I meet and interact with on a day to day basis because most people aren't like this and most men aren't rapists.

But it never fails that when someone is accused or convicted of rape that their friends and acquaintances come to the forefront "He's such a nice guy/quiet guy/friendly guy/normal guy." So how do I tell who actually is a nice/normal/friendly guy and who is a potential rapist masquerading as a nice/normal/friendly guy?
 
SylarNY said:
Lets just wait to see what happens in court before we give these two the death penalty.
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That's exactly the point though: The state has to use that restraint because its decisions about whether a person is innocent or guilty have actual consequences, like imprisonment and sometimes even execution.

Our opinions do not carry the same consequences, so we needn't exercise the same measure of caution in concluding someone is guilty. Nothing I or anyone else posts in this thread will deny these two men their day in court or the presumption of innocence they will enjoy.
 
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