Would Sugar Robinson be considered a boring fighter today?

[hillelslovak87]

I think TS is wrong for bringing that fight forth and speaking of it being boring. Then again, I enjoyed Judah-Mayweather greatly....

 

[mozfonky]

The gloves would make Floyds style more difficult to implement, right? They look much smaller and even dark red/brownish, which would make it easier for the aggressor to punch through guards and also harder for the defender to see shots coming with peripheral vision

hard to say, i've been hit by the old horsehair and the newer gloves, I'd much prefer getting hit by the horsehair, more natural and I think they would be less damaging to the face because when they land, there isn't the same contact made, for example, if you get hit by these spongelike gloves they have today, they seem to contour to your face better and make it easier to break the nose, i never had a broken nose until i started getting tagged with those, and I took plenty of punches before that. Also, as willie pep mentioned in the 80's, that the old time gloves were easier to parry with, they were easier to use like a catchers mitt against punches, he said this in reaction to the thumbless glove craze which thankfully went away, but that statement could be applied to any glove that you can't easily open and close. The peripheral vision thing? maybe, i'd never thought about it. Usually, the peripheral vision is somewhat a gift I think, or maybe it's just seeing the body motions and knowing what's coming, they say henry armstrong would watch his opponents feet for defense.

 

[mozfonky]

SRR prime v RJJ prime is my all time dream fight

I've thought about this a lot, rjj is a good 20 pounds bigger naturally, (people forget, ray turned pro at lightweight, roy turned pro at Jr. middleweight) He was faster and had more power but none of the great bodymechanics of Ray, that wouldn't be the problem though, the problem is this, Roy never did prove he could fight someone who was landing a ton of punches back and win, ray did, so what would ray do? Not throw punches like many of roys opponents did after they tasted his power? Or would he throw everything he had like he almost always did? Roy was bad but there weren't too many fights where he fought someone live, meaning someone who would throw and keep throwing. I saw the Jorge Vaca fight recently, Jorge was game but like Sosa, the other fighter who fought back, roy just hurt him and got him outta there, what if those guys didn't get hurt so fast and kept coming? That would have been interesting. Also, we saw how Roy handled his first loss, he looked even worse than his old opponents did in many of his fights after that. Absolutely pathetic, not throwing punches, doing nothing, made me wonder why he was even there. It ain't that hard to move your arms, so I don't get why he'd just show up like he did in the tarver fight and do nothing, but when you know how people react to getting kayoed, it makes perfect sense, he was scared.

 

[Streeter]

I've thought about this a lot, rjj is a good 20 pounds bigger naturally, (people forget, ray turned pro at lightweight, roy turned pro at Jr. middleweight) He was faster and had more power but none of the great bodymechanics of Ray, that wouldn't be the problem though, the problem is this, Roy never did prove he could fight someone who was landing a ton of punches back and win, ray did, so what would ray do? Not throw punches like many of roys opponents did after they tasted his power? Or would he throw everything he had like he almost always did? Roy was bad but there weren't too many fights where he fought someone live, meaning someone who would throw and keep throwing. I saw the Jorge Vaca fight recently, Jorge was game but like Sosa, the other fighter who fought back, roy just hurt him and got him outta there, what if those guys didn't get hurt so fast and kept coming? That would have been interesting. Also, we saw how Roy handled his first loss, he looked even worse than his old opponents did in many of his fights after that. Absolutely pathetic, not throwing punches, doing nothing, made me wonder why he was even there. It ain't that hard to move your arms, so I don't get why he'd just show up like he did in the tarver fight and do nothing, but when you know how people react to getting kayoed, it makes perfect sense, he was scared.

In RJJs defense he really didnt lose till he was well on the slide.

On this fight I got no clue who wins...... RJJs better natural gifts or SRRs un human in ring IQ an will. To this day I never seen a better or more gifted complete fighter than RJJ . I never saw SRR other than tapes just my old man always said he was best he ever saw.
Looking back in History IMO theres no better prime for prime fight. But........ Maywether SRL would be 2nd for me......... then Maybe Primr Foreman v Prime Tyson just for carnage fun

 

[mozfonky]

In RJJs defense he really didnt lose till he was well on the slide.

On this fight I got no clue who wins...... RJJs better natural gifts or SRRs un human in ring IQ an will. To this day I never seen a better or more gifted complete fighter than RJJ . I never saw SRR other than tapes just my old man always said he was best he ever saw.
Looking back in History IMO theres no better prime for prime fight. But........ Maywether SRL would be 2nd for me......... then Maybe Primr Foreman v Prime Tyson just for carnage fun

a big part of the sport is resilience, roy didn't have it, ray did, another big part is intangibles, it's really hard to say where roy's intangibles were, whereas, it's easy to say what rays intagibles were. Ray should win but roy had such prodigous speed and power, after all, he would routinely hurt or kayo guys who weren't kayoed before, even early on. What happens if he catches ray clean? Ray had a great chin but he barely escaped a clean kayo a couple times, one when he won the title against, what's his name? Tommy Bell and the other was when he admitted that Graziano would have kayoed him had the right hand that floored him landed just a little lower. Ray had the intangibles to handle a lot though and that makes it hard to say.

 

[mozfonky]

In RJJs defense he really didnt lose till he was well on the slide.

On this fight I got no clue who wins...... RJJs better natural gifts or SRRs un human in ring IQ an will. To this day I never seen a better or more gifted complete fighter than RJJ . I never saw SRR other than tapes just my old man always said he was best he ever saw.
Looking back in History IMO theres no better prime for prime fight. But........ Maywether SRL would be 2nd for me......... then Maybe Primr Foreman v Prime Tyson just for carnage fun

i've never seen a fighter fall off a cliff like roy did, that doesn't work in his favor. His mental strength has to be questioned by that. Most fighters age a lot more gradually than he did, he got kayoed once and then got kayoed by an amateurish fighter in the next fight, who couldn't really even hit, not really fighting back, closing his eyes, hiding behind his gloves, he shouldn't have even been there.

 

[Streeter]

a big part of the sport is resilience, roy didn't have it, ray did, another big part is intangibles, it's really hard to say where roy's intangibles were, whereas, it's easy to say what rays intagibles were. Ray should win but roy had such prodigous speed and power, after all, he would routinely hurt or kayo guys who weren't kayoed before, even early on. What happens if he catches ray clean? Ray had a great chin but he barely escaped a clean kayo a couple times, one when he won the title against, what's his name? Tommy Bell and the other was when he admitted that Graziano would have kayoed him had the right hand that floored him landed just a little lower. Ray had the intangibles to handle a lot though and that makes it hard to say.

Good take. Like I said just watched a few tapes of his. Just know about his legendary heart n will.

What you think odds would be on

Prime for Prime
RJJ V SRR........ Pick em
SRL v Mayweather ...... SRL slightly
Foreman v Tyson ...... no clue

 

[Yacob]

they say henry armstrong would watch his opponents feet for defense.

That's wild....Armstrong is the greatest p4p fighter ever in some areas, Harry Greb is right there too.

The thing about Pep saying old gloves are good for the catch and shhot is interesting too....back then that style was more common too, could be the reason why not many guys fight like a Willie Pep or Maxie Rosenbloom etc

 

[mozfonky]

Good take. Like I said just watched a few tapes of his. Just know about his legendary heart n will.

What you think odds would be on

Prime for Prime
RJJ V SRR........ Pick em
SRL v Mayweather ...... SRL slightly
Foreman v Tyson ...... no clue

ray should be the favorite,
leonard/mayweather, leonard
foreman/ tyson- george does the same thing he did to frazier and is able to absorb enough of mikes punches.

 

[mozfonky]

the way that they used to parry is way more natural with those gloves, every minor change in the sport has it's effect and that goes for the way fighters fight too. it's just one more thing that makes it hard to gauge who would do what in a different era. Recently, I've been thinking about how the old timers looked bad in their footage but so do some modern fighters, pacquiao does some strange shit with his combinations but it wouldn't work if it weren't so strange, same for Mayorga against many of his opponents, you do things "wrong" and you're opponent hasn't seen it enough to be prepped.

 

[Yacob]

the way that they used to parry is way more natural with those gloves, every minor change in the sport has it's effect and that goes for the way fighters fight too. it's just one more thing that makes it hard to gauge who would do what in a different era. Recently, I've been thinking about how the old timers looked bad in their footage but so do some modern fighters, pacquiao does some strange shit with his combinations but it wouldn't work if it weren't so strange, same for Mayorga against many of his opponents, you do things "wrong" and you're opponent hasn't seen it enough to be prepped.

I think different eras all have tremendous boxing on display if you take into account the things you mention

Jack Johnson for example....i think he was a slam dunk awesome boxer. He'd hold one arm low to throw a shot from the left hip, immediately clinch with a right overhook, then he'd switch hands in the clinch by throwing uppercuts from that right overhook

I watch Johnson and see a 1900s version of Floyd Mayweather. He basically shoulder rolled even....he had the most style of anyone back then. Jack was slick defensively and he absolutely destroyed people in clinches with those hard uppercuts

If you combined Wlad with Floyd you'd be pretty close to Jack Johnson with a few tweeks