Would GSP have fought Whittaker if he never got colitis?

[frye666]

So you think gsp put the size on. His team said he was coming for the middle weight belt and gsp and his team were clairvoyant enough to know luke wouldn’t staybchamp and bisping would win??

 

[90 50]

Fine. But why didn’t GSP defend his Middleweight title?

Because he was like 160lbs a week after the fight fasting to try and get the colitis to stop..

 

[Calipwnia]

Because he was like 160lbs a week after the fight fasting to try and get the colitis to stop..

What you just said says you don’t know of colitis.

 

[ThunderStruck]

Fine. But why didn’t GSP defend his Middleweight title?

Because he was diagnosed with colitis?

 

[Make MMA Great Again]

I don't think I've ever seen a fighter win a belt in a new weight class and actually lose respect like I have with this Canadian hype job.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

OK, first of all, I am LOVING it!
Sorry for the delay in response, but I had a very busy day (along with me burning 3 fingers on my right hand, which obviously impact my typing
But let's get to it.

I disagree with you that beating BJ Penn is disregarded because Pen came from LW division.
IMHO the biggest issue was the blatant cheating by GSP and his team with the use of vaseline.
But BJ is a legend of the sport, and that triangle (HUghes, GSP & BJ) were amazing and if anything, brought GSP to the center stage along with the (at the time) WW GOAT and LW GOAT.
I mean you can't say it did not elevate GSP. It put him as elite as those two and validated him as a star.

So that kills your assessment that it would do nothing for Silva. Either one that wins that fight would be rendered absolute (UFC) GOAT, contending only against Fedor for MMA GOAT (though I share your opinion and we both know there's only one emperor - WAR FEDOR).

As for them not being equal, while yes (obviously) they are in different Weight classes, they are as close as two dominant champions could be.
I mean, no one claimed DC was a LHW champion when he beat Stipe. Same for CCC beating TJK and grabbing the vacant title....
No, moving one weight class up or down is not the end of the world, and we've seen it far too many times. (AJ, Kenny, etc).

So I disagree with you it would not be good for both (though IMHO they should have fought at 180 Lbs). Not too much extra to take from Silva, but enough to make it a fair fight).

As for not being about money, I can tell you this: If it was about money, Dana would have said something, much as he always does for anyone who asks too much. He LOVES to paint fighters as greedy, and people ALWAYS eat it up (which is beyond me how they don't peg Dana as the greedy one)!
Just look at how he did it recently to Jon Jones, Masvidal, DP, etc. And before you claim this is a new trend, let us not forget he attempted to do the same to Fedor, as he stated he did not join the UFC in spite of how much money they threw at him... and Fedor was fast to shut this lie down.

And come on now! GSP is not your average athlete.
He had movie deals (Capt America, Kickboxer, Cartels, etc), he has his sponsors, he is an ambassador for MMA. So he knows he got money, and he is making more and more despite not competing anymore.
He is NOT one of those who burn money either. So I disagree the issue was money.

Look at how GSP speaks. it is ALWAYS about his legacy. ALWAYS.
That's why he does not risk losing EVER.
GSP & Bisping was an opportunity. The weakest MW champ ever! Get two belts (for his legacy). And while I do agree it hurt his legacy (to run from Whittaker), just look at the ready-made excuses from hs fans. Diverticulities, why he needs to defend belts (he's aboe that) and all that crap! Do you really think anyone will remember the details in a few years? All that matters is that he got 2 belts and was challenging for a third (if Dana did not cock-block him, he'd even get it)!.

Now, at this time, I need to pause it to explain what I meant by GSP "not taking risks".
As I mentioned before, I hate when people hint a fighter was "afraid" of another fighter. They fight for a living for christsakes!!
But I didn't mean it that way.
Instead, let me ilustrate it perfectly with one fight.
do you recall GSP & Koscheck (UFC 124). In the first round, GSP broke Koscheck's orbital bone. Kos was done.
But GSP kept jabbing poor Kos's face for 4 more rounds.
Not ONCE he attempted to end the fight. He knew he could outjab Koscheck and that's what he did...
Koscheck's desperation was clear! He was done! He wanted out. But GSP did not deviate from his gameplan, because it was a safe gameplan. And trying to put Kos away would involve taking more risks.... risk GSP is simply not willing to take. Make sense?

Now, I do agree that fighting all top fighters in his division was a risk, but those were risks he couldn't avoid. Inside the octagon though, he fought for his legacy, and he would not risk it period.

And this is also why he retired IMHO.
He knew he was done the second he got that (gifted) decision from the judges against Hendricks.
And why? Because he got an opportunity to leave on top, unlike Silva, Fedor and so many others.
That's because he minds his legacy above all.

And as for fighting Khabib.... do you REALLY think it would add NOTHING to his legacy???
He would be the ONLY triple champion EVER!!! How is this not legacy defining???

Ok, as I noted, I LOVE this discussion with you!!! You are the reason I still come to sherdog! Our passion and to not debate, but to explain our points of view and learn from others differing views! I hubly thank you for that!!!! And if you are willing we can continue this on!!!

This is an excellent discussion. You bring up a number of very good points, and I think we're well into the territory of viable different interpretations of the same events.

I'm going to disagree, though on emphasis more than content -- you make a very good case that legacy is part of GSP's concern, though I still think money is a larger part.

Starting with his legacy from the 2nd Penn fight (the first one, though his win was controversial and I think Penn should have gotten the decision, definitely raised his status at the time from barely known to an established fighter). I don't think the blatant greasing did much to its effect on his legacy -- after all, there's a very widely seen gif of Anderson spreading grease over his body at the start of a fight, and its hard to imagine why GSP greasing would affect his legacy more than Anderson greasing would affect his. The usual argument (if you read GOAT threads on Sherdog and other sites) is the one I mentioned -- Penn was a LW, and beating a smaller fighter doesn't improve your legacy.

This applies to boxing as well. For instance Muhammad Ali (who I'll add was a far greater fighter than anyone in MMA has ever been) beat Bob Foster, who is considered one of the greatest LHW boxers of all time -- and yet its almost never mentioned when boxing GOAT status is discussed. Why? Because foster was a great fighter from a lower weight division, and so beating him was expected.

So I still say Anderson beating GSP would do little for his GOAT status. Going up in weight and beating Forest did more for Anderson as GOAT than staying at 185 and beating GSP would do. Fighting at 177.5 (splitting the difference makes more sense than going at 180 if you're to do a catch weight) would be different and would help Anderson's legacy, but the fact that it was only mentioned twice by Anderson (fewer times than he mentioned fighting Conor) makes me think he was trolling, and in fact backs my argument that its about money more than legacy. The reason Anderson wanted 185 rather than a catchweight was money -- a catchweight loses casual viewers, and that could cut PPV shares dramatically.

You make a good point about Dana liking to paint fighters as greedy, but in this case he'd have to have said GSP wanted extra money to go up in weight, and just about everybody who's done any business would say "Of course, that's the norm in business, if you take a disadvantage you get compensated". And that's a precedent Dana doesn't want mentioned. Having said that, its admittedly a weakness in my argument.

In terms of wanting more money, as you say, GSP has made far more than your average fighter. But he's made far less than some fighters (and other athletes) who are now broke. GSP would know (and his financial advisers would constantly remind him) than once retired he has no real source of income. And in fact his cautious nature would ensure that he would want as much money as possible before retiring -- its risk takers who gamble on such things. Moreover, he grew up relatively poor, and its very common for such people to be very careful with their money, hoarding it and wanting more (only for their children or grandchildren to blow it all in a single generation, but that's a different story).

You're right of course that he always talks about legacy, but so does everyone else, and in every field. No one wants to admit being mainly about money. So I don't take such talk as meaningful, its actions that show what's important.

I agree with your description of GSP's limited risk taking (in the previous post you say said he never took risks) -- he's cautious and takes calculated risks, but like anyone in MMA he takes risks. (And I admit I always find it mildly annoying when someone posting on Sherdog says any fighter is a coward or afraid to take risks -- its like saying the guy who came last in the 100m sprint final in the Olympics is slow). However, the same risk/reward applies to legacy or money in this case -- he needed to take those risks to get either. So I don't think it helps decide which of the two was his priority.

One point I think we disagree on is how much a loss hurts legacy. Most of the greatest fighters in history (and greatest athletes in any sport) have losses without it effecting their legacies. You mention Anderson and Fedor, both of whom are in the top of the MMA GOAT lists. In boxing almost all the top GOAT candidates, everyone from Sugar Ray Robinson to Muhammad Ali, have several losses). What hurts legacy isn't having a few losses, its never going for greater challenges. GSP's not going for finishes will do more to hurt his legacy than going up in weight and losing to Anderson would ever do.

In terms of legacy, fighting Anderson could only improve it. If he lost it wouldn't hurt his legacy much (if at all), as he lost going up in weight. And if he won it would have cemented it. In terms of money however, going up to fight Anderson could definitely hurt it -- literally, because the chance of a career ending injury goes up as you fight heavier guys than yourself, even if its just being sidelined for a year while recovering. The reason not to fight Anderson had to be money driven rather than legacy driven, because there was no legacy downside to losing to Anderson (again, look at the GOAT lists and notice that almost all of them have losses).

And even retiring after the Hendricks fight (I agree he should have lost 48-47) -- though he'd been talking of retiring for awhile so I suspect he really was burnt out and feeling his knee injury -- shows lack of concern for legacy. That was only his fourth hardest fight (Serra and Hughes both finished him, Penn hospitalized him), and he even won the last round. If his prime concern was legacy he would have wanted to avenge that, as he did Penn, Serra and Hughes. But in fact even with Penn, Serra and Hughes, those rematches were all part of normal title fights, rather than special fights targeted to protect his legacy. He didn't seem to care about them except in terms of normal steps in the money making process of becoming and holding onto the title.

Basically, his career is one of someone who is careful about making money, rather than of someone out to make a legacy.

Anyway, I'm really going on, so I should stop. I will say you raise a lot of excellent points, and I'm arguing more definitely "money oriented" than I think is true -- you make very good points that legacy is one of the things he thinks of. I'm enjoying the refining of positions we're both doing -- probably will get us banned from Sherdog though, so we should finish with some "you suck" or "that's stupid" comments

 

[SamboPunch]

Nah, he just wanted to fight Bisping and get the belt. He just will never say it.

which honestly is kinda lame, just admit what you're doing and stop trying to make it seem more special than it is

 

[Thepaintbucket]

I don't think I've ever seen a fighter win a belt in a new weight class and actually lose respect like I have with this Canadian hype job.

I have my doubt that he would've defended the belt or fought anybody not named Micheal Bisping but GSP isn't a hype job. He's the real deal. A great fighter.

 

[Intellidamus]

Any other fighter comes out of a 4 year retirement to win a title in a higher weight class, it would he considered amazing. Even if it was a one and done. GSP does it and the basement dwellers have been having a fit ever since. It’s like the liberals crying and burning shit down for 4 years because Trump was elected.

 

[TriangleMonkey]

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't GSP already plan to move up to 185 BEFORE Bisping was champion?

He was honey-dicking us with the move like Bones has been doing the last 5yrs. Bones too waiting on the perfect moment to pounce on the strap.

 

[Shaddows]

This is an excellent discussion. You bring up a number of very good points, and I think we're well into the territory of viable different interpretations of the same events.

I'm going to disagree, though on emphasis more than content -- you make a very good case that legacy is part of GSP's concern, though I still think money is a larger part.

Starting with his legacy from the 2nd Penn fight (the first one, though his win was controversial and I think Penn should have gotten the decision, definitely raised his status at the time from barely known to an established fighter). I don't think the blatant greasing did much to its effect on his legacy -- after all, there's a very widely seen gif of Anderson spreading grease over his body at the start of a fight, and its hard to imagine why GSP greasing would affect his legacy more than Anderson greasing would affect his. The usual argument (if you read GOAT threads on Sherdog and other sites) is the one I mentioned -- Penn was a LW, and beating a smaller fighter doesn't improve your legacy.

This applies to boxing as well. For instance Muhammad Ali (who I'll add was a far greater fighter than anyone in MMA has ever been) beat Bob Foster, who is considered one of the greatest LHW boxers of all time -- and yet its almost never mentioned when boxing GOAT status is discussed. Why? Because foster was a great fighter from a lower weight division, and so beating him was expected.

So I still say Anderson beating GSP would do little for his GOAT status. Going up in weight and beating Forest did more for Anderson as GOAT than staying at 185 and beating GSP would do. Fighting at 177.5 (splitting the difference makes more sense than going at 180 if you're to do a catch weight) would be different and would help Anderson's legacy, but the fact that it was only mentioned twice by Anderson (fewer times than he mentioned fighting Conor) makes me think he was trolling, and in fact backs my argument that its about money more than legacy. The reason Anderson wanted 185 rather than a catchweight was money -- a catchweight loses casual viewers, and that could cut PPV shares dramatically.

You make a good point about Dana liking to paint fighters as greedy, but in this case he'd have to have said GSP wanted extra money to go up in weight, and just about everybody who's done any business would say "Of course, that's the norm in business, if you take a disadvantage you get compensated". And that's a precedent Dana doesn't want mentioned. Having said that, its admittedly a weakness in my argument.

In terms of wanting more money, as you say, GSP has made far more than your average fighter. But he's made far less than some fighters (and other athletes) who are now broke. GSP would know (and his financial advisers would constantly remind him) than once retired he has no real source of income. And in fact his cautious nature would ensure that he would want as much money as possible before retiring -- its risk takers who gamble on such things. Moreover, he grew up relatively poor, and its very common for such people to be very careful with their money, hoarding it and wanting more (only for their children or grandchildren to blow it all in a single generation, but that's a different story).

You're right of course that he always talks about legacy, but so does everyone else, and in every field. No one wants to admit being mainly about money. So I don't take such talk as meaningful, its actions that show what's important.

I agree with your description of GSP's limited risk taking (in the previous post you say said he never took risks) -- he's cautious and takes calculated risks, but like anyone in MMA he takes risks. (And I admit I always find it mildly annoying when someone posting on Sherdog says any fighter is a coward or afraid to take risks -- its like saying the guy who came last in the 100m sprint final in the Olympics is slow). However, the same risk/reward applies to legacy or money in this case -- he needed to take those risks to get either. So I don't think it helps decide which of the two was his priority.

One point I think we disagree on is how much a loss hurts legacy. Most of the greatest fighters in history (and greatest athletes in any sport) have losses without it effecting their legacies. You mention Anderson and Fedor, both of whom are in the top of the MMA GOAT lists. In boxing almost all the top GOAT candidates, everyone from Sugar Ray Robinson to Muhammad Ali, have several losses). What hurts legacy isn't having a few losses, its never going for greater challenges. GSP's not going for finishes will do more to hurt his legacy than going up in weight and losing to Anderson would ever do.

In terms of legacy, fighting Anderson could only improve it. If he lost it wouldn't hurt his legacy much (if at all), as he lost going up in weight. And if he won it would have cemented it. In terms of money however, going up to fight Anderson could definitely hurt it -- literally, because the chance of a career ending injury goes up as you fight heavier guys than yourself, even if its just being sidelined for a year while recovering. The reason not to fight Anderson had to be money driven rather than legacy driven, because there was no legacy downside to losing to Anderson (again, look at the GOAT lists and notice that almost all of them have losses).

And even retiring after the Hendricks fight (I agree he should have lost 48-47) -- though he'd been talking of retiring for awhile so I suspect he really was burnt out and feeling his knee injury -- shows lack of concern for legacy. That was only his fourth hardest fight (Serra and Hughes both finished him, Penn hospitalized him), and he even won the last round. If his prime concern was legacy he would have wanted to avenge that, as he did Penn, Serra and Hughes. But in fact even with Penn, Serra and Hughes, those rematches were all part of normal title fights, rather than special fights targeted to protect his legacy. He didn't seem to care about them except in terms of normal steps in the money making process of becoming and holding onto the title.

Basically, his career is one of someone who is careful about making money, rather than of someone out to make a legacy.

Anyway, I'm really going on, so I should stop. I will say you raise a lot of excellent points, and I'm arguing more definitely "money oriented" than I think is true -- you make very good points that legacy is one of the things he thinks of. I'm enjoying the refining of positions we're both doing -- probably will get us banned from Sherdog though, so we should finish with some "you suck" or "that's stupid" comments

OK, let me start by stating one thing that I know nothing about BOxing.
Yes, I had the pleasure of watching many of the greats, but I cannot opine of how/what wins would help or hinder anyone's legacy. So I take your word for it.

HOWEVER, that has never stopped anyone in Sherdog of stating their opinion anyway, isn't it?
But I digress. I do think his (first) win over BJ Penn was surrounded by shameful and blatant cheating (vaseline-gate), reason why even most rabid GSP fans avoid touching the subject (at least to prop as an amazing win, which would be the case if the vaseline was not involved).

The second win (over BJ), I blame more BJ Penn than credit GSP. I mean, I give full credit to GSP (he did what he had to do), but I think BJ did not prepare for that fight at all.

Anyway, I disagree that Forrest win would count more than beating GSP at 185.
Heck, you can hear haters (and GSP fans) discrediting that fight all the time. They either try to claim Forrest was not elite (despite being one fight removed from being the champ), or they discredit because of the pill(s) Forrest took (without anyone ever weighing how much it might have affected him - if at all).

And of course, we have the fact that Silva&GSP fight never happened, so it is hard to gauge how people would take it.
I mean, yes, I concede that if Silva would have imposed his size and beaten GSP to a pulp, people would demean his victory stating GSP was too small. But then again, if GSP was able to take Silva down a few times, and Silva had to battle back up and beat him on a hard fought battle, then people would have to give him full credit, much like they do to Stipe for beating DC.

As for the money, I do agree it plays part in any negotiation. But I never heard anyone involved even mentioning it (to be an obstacle). That's not to say they all agreed on a number. Hell, for all I know, they didn't even get to that part because they never got that close to setting up a fight.
...and the reason not to get that close, was exactly because GSP did not want to risk his legacy for a fight that was rushed in. If you recall, at some point he demanded about a year to properly build muscles in order to fight Silva at MW. And there was always something else, a new challenger, movies, etc.

And while I do agree with you that many top fighters have losses and that does not demean their accomplishments, you have to agree that Fedor is considered by most as the GOAT exactly because he was unbeaten for a decade. Yes, he has losses, but one was before he hit his prime and the rest were post-prime. But had his losses been throughout his career, people would have a much harder argument to support him as GOAT.
Same applies to SIlva. Some haters try to demean his career for losing to Takase or Chonan.
And virtually all haters beat on SIlva & Fedor later record of losses (like it somehow erases their previous accomplishments).

That's while the biggest "accomplishment" GSP fanboys love to scream about him that makes him GOAT: The fact he beat all his opponents (or avenged all his losses).
So yeah, not adding losses to his record is VERY important, since this is his major plea for GOATness
Note: I will not enter the merit of it, as I profoundly disagree with it; but it is a fact that this is the biggest highlight GSP fanboys like to claim that all other GOAT's can't state the same.

Besides, I think most other GOAT contenders views about legacy vastly differ.
Silva likes to take chances. That's why he accepted many fights in short notice, even against guys like Bonnar or DC (with only 2 days notice!!!).
Fedor took more on the "old time fighter's approach". I never saw him refuse any fighter put in front of him. Even those huge monsters that people (now) claim were cans (but no one acknowledge that those massive cans were dangerous exactly for the size discrepancy as well as what a loss would make to Fedor's status and his claim to greatness).

No, I think only GSP looked at it from the perspective of "what do I gain, and how much do I risk?"
And while I do agree he was "talking" about retirement, you could see on Dana's reaction after Hendricks fight that this took him completely by surprise. And IMHO it was a decision because GSP knew he lost that fight. You could see on his demeanor once the bell sounded. So when he got the (gifted) decision, I think he had a knee-jerk reaction and just quit right there and then, while he was ahead!

This is akin to mistakenly make a bet on a cassino, using all your money. When you realise what happened, despite knowing it was a mistake, you start fearing the worst and your brain can just utter one word: "F**K!!!" over and over. But it was too late to pull out, so all you can do is wait for the results. But you end up winning somehow, but the fear of losing everything compels you to cash out and just call it a night, instead of betting more!

As for the money, I have to disagree with you. GSP is careful (or serious) about money. But he did make a fortune while fighting. Heck, I bet he made much or enough to live comfortably for the next few generations. Hell, while he was fighting his purse from sponsors alone were north of 15 million per year! Far more than what he made per fight!

Here, I found a quote from Ben Fowlkes on GSP's sponsorships (around 2012):

For instance, just in the last 12 months St-Pierre has signed lucrative endorsement deals with companies such as Coca-Cola, Google and Bacardi. He's got a deal with HarperCollins to write a book that he describes as part autobiography and part philosophy ("kind of like 'The Art of War,'" St-Pierre said). He's also renewed his apparel deal with Under Armour and signed one with noted MMA equipment manufacturer Hayabusa, all despite not setting foot in the UFC octagon since April of 2011 thanks to a torn ACL in his right knee.

According to industry sources, St-Pierre currently has 14 endorsement deals with each paying him somewhere in the six-figure range. If you tally up the numbers from past and present deals, his income outside the cage is well into eight figures, sources say, with much of it coming in the past year alone.

So while money is important, let us not pretend he was afraid he'd squander it all somehow. He is NOT that type of person. And besides, many of those sponsorships continued throughout his retirement, so he is still getting paid even though he is not fighting anymore.

But let me finish by claiming that you are obviously a clueless fat virgin, living in your mother's basement, and that you know nothing about MMA!!! So I hope you run in shame and never comes back!!!

- shhhh! I lied! I am LOVING it, and hope we continue this discussion!!!!!