Would GSP have fought Whittaker if he never got colitis?

[IndyCovaHart]

Anyone still buying this “good guy Georgie” routine is naive af.

 

[jx820]

He was planning to come back when Rocksalt was still champ..

Bisping just made it easier.

That’s exactly what it means?? If Rocksalt had beaten bisping you think Dana would have magically made bisping champ so gsp could fight him??

Entered the testing pool and planned to move up are not the same as planned to fight Luke.

I think if Rockhold had the belt GSP would have fought someone else. They'd have made a "Super Fight" or talked him down to 170. They'd have made a freakshow fight before any of his handlers, from the promotion to his team, allowed that to happen.

Rockhold is a good sized LHW. GSP wasn't a very big WW and tiny MW. GSP is immensely talented, but at some point and level of skill size matters. Even aesthetically how would you sell that fight after a face off?

 

[ThunderStruck]

I clearly just showed you a source of Firas Zahabi whom you should know being such a GSP apologist

Thats not a source thats a picture where theres no mention of Firaz nor the date. Post the real link.

And as I said, no matter what Firas fantasies are, GSP has stated that he doesn't want to call out a smaller fighter in McGregor when he was asked about it.

 

[Calipwnia]

Thats not a source thats a picture where theres no mention of Firaz nor the date. Post the real link.

And as I said, no matter what Firas fantasies are, GSP has stated that he doesn't want to call out a smaller fighter in McGregor when he was asked about it.

There’s clearly a date December 18th 2017. But it doesn’t matter to you. You’ve made up your mind and you will discredit the writer or bleacherreport itself w/e to confirm what you want to believe.

It’s often painful to confront facts that contradict your beliefs. I could post the link but coming from me, you will just find ways to reject it.

you can find the articles easy enough yourself, if you find the courage to allow yourself the possibility of being wrong.

 

[ThunderStruck]

There’s clearly a date December 18th 2017. But it doesn’t matter to you. You’ve made up your mind and you will discredit the writer or bleacherreport itself w/e to confirm what you want to believe.

It’s often painful to confront facts that contradict your beliefs. I could post the link but coming from me, you will just find ways to reject it.

you can find the articles easy enough yourself, if you find the courage to allow yourself the possibility of being wrong.

So you can't post the link?

 

[90 50]

Entered the testing pool and planned to move up are not the same as planned to fight Luke.

I think if Rockhold had the belt GSP would have fought someone else. They'd have made a "Super Fight" or talked him down to 170. They'd have made a freakshow fight before any of his handlers, from the promotion to his team, allowed that to happen.

Rockhold is a good sized LHW. GSP wasn't a very big WW and tiny MW. GSP is immensely talented, but at some point and level of skill size matters. Even aesthetically how would you sell that fight after a face off?

So you think gsp put the size on. His team said he was coming for the middle weight belt and gsp and his team were clairvoyant enough to know luke wouldn’t staybchamp and bisping would win??

 

[Calipwnia]

So you can't post the link?

I can, but it would be a good exercise for you. Seek your own enlightenment.

 

[jx820]

So you think gsp put the size on. His team said he was coming for the middle weight belt and gsp and his team were clairvoyant enough to know luke wouldn’t staybchamp and bisping would win??

I don't know if you are aware of this, but it is not only possible, but common for people to say things they don't actually mean and wouldn't actually do. Sometimes this can be used as a negotiating tactic. For example when GSP said he would fight Anderson but he'd have to take the time and put the weight on the right way. That was a stalling / negotiating tactic. He kept himself in an interesting conversation and got a lot of column inches, but he was never going to fight Anderson.

 

[ThunderStruck]

I can, but it would be a good exercise for you. Seek your own enlightenment.

i googled the date bleacher report and GSP and it didn't come out.

If you're so good surely you can google it for me?

 

[Claude]

Nope. Too risky for a safe fighter like GSP.

 

[Calipwnia]

i googled the date bleacher report and GSP and it didn't come out.

If you're so good surely you can google it for me?
bleacherreport.com/articles/2749904-gsp-targeting-mcgregor-mayweather-for-big-exciting-fights

 

[Canadian fan]

Georges trained with Whittaker and Georges was the best in the gym when they trained together and nothing would have changed if they fought in the cage... Whittaker wasn’t even the 2nd best in the gym Rory was.... Welterweight was always better than Middleweight and Whittaker couldn’t break the top 10 at Welterweight and became champ at Middleweight....

 

[ThunderStruck]

Thanks.

I do think that GSP had nothing to do with what Firaz said and it was just Firaz wishing to make money off him.

 

[Calipwnia]

Thanks.

I do think that GSP had nothing to do with what Firaz said and it was just Firaz wishing to make money off him.

The point is that his long time coach, friend and confident didn’t seem concerned about Ulcerative Colitis effecting his ability to compete at a high level.

there was thus talk about how GSP and his camp were thinking about pulling out of the fight because his colitis was so bad. But here is Zahabi a week after vacating, pandering for big money fights.

I don’t know what you will infer from this but to most everyone reasonable, GSP simply did not want to fight anyone at MW not named Michael Bisping.

 

[ThunderStruck]

The point is that his long time coach, friend and confident didn’t seem concerned about Ulcerative Colitis effecting his ability to compete at a high level.

there was thus talk about how GSP and his camp were thinking about pulling out of the fight because his colitis was so bad. But here is Zahabi a week after vacating, pandering for big money fights.

I don’t know what you will infer from this but to most everyone reasonable, GSP simply did not want to fight anyone at MW not named Michael Bisping.

Before the fight with Bisping the doctors didnt put the nail on the exact problem and he wasn't yet diagnosed with colitis. GSP's coaches just noticed how sick he constantly was. But that was just Firaz being interviewed by TSN. He had to tell them something worth mentioning. As I said, when GSP was asked in an interview if he wanted to fight Conor, he clearly said no. As for Mayweather i never heard GSP talk about fighting him ever.

 

[Shaddows]

You raise good points, including one I'd never really considered before. I still disagree, but there's a lot more to your side of the argument than I'd originally have thought -- and its always great when a discussion goes that way. You're forcing me to think through my opinions, and refine them. This is a long post again (joys of Covid-19 limitations I guess), so I hope you have time (or interest) in reading it.

Your point about fighting for the GOAT status (and I'm glad you limited it to the UFC, given that I'm one of those that include Fedor in that category, along with Anderson, Jones and GSP) is an excellent one. If that fight would really establish that, then it'd be far more important than a title fight -- at least legacy wise, given that it's an unofficial and very subjective title so unlike other titles it'd always be very disputed, as you point out yourself). Your analogy to conference titles vs the Superbowl is right on the money.

The problem is, while GSP beating Anderson at 185 would definitely have given GSP a huge claim to GOAT status, I don't think Anderson beating GSP at 185 would have done anything for Anderson's claim to GOAT status. As the bigger guy, he'd have been expected to win. Anderson could have lost GOAT status by losing, but gained nothing by winning. An example of this is GSP beating Penn, who at the time was the LW GOAT. Only GSP's most rabid fans would say him beating Penn does anything for his GOAT status -- GSP was bigger than Penn, so he was expected to win. For Anderson to go up in GOAT status he'd have had to beat an established LHW champ (beating Jones would have locked that in, but even beating Liddell, Machida or Shogun would have sufficed).

And of course, the situation would be reversed if they fought at 170. GSP would be expected to win, because Anderson would have had to fight partially drained. Beating Anderson at 170 would do nothing for GSP's GOAT legacy, but Anderson beating GSP at 170 would have been a huge boost to his GOAT status.

Basically, I don't think its possible to have a single fight between two guys from different weight divisions that would be for the GOAT title, because the bigger guy is always expected to win because of size alone. There's no way to have a Superbowl like competition between two equal conferences.

Of course a catchweight would have given both of them some increase in GOAT status, more for GSP than Anderson, but that was only mentioned a couple of times by Anderson -- fewer times than he'd talked about fighting Connor. I actually agree that Anderson likes to troll, and I suspect you're right that he was trolling about fighting Connor. But for the same reason I suspect he was trolling when he offered (once) to fight GSP at 170, and when he offered (twice) to fight GSP at catchweight. The problem with catchweight for Anderson, GSP, and the UFC is that they all make big money of PPV shares, and non-title fights lose casuals. MMA is a very niche sport (PPV's of around a million from a continent of 100+ million households is tiny), and most potential fans are casuals. Winning a catch-weight would have been good for either of their legacies, but very bad for their pocket books compared to winning a title fight.

So if it was about GOAT status, at 185 (the weight you think was the correct one for the fight), then the only one gaining would be GSP. And his status would go up for a win against any UFC MW, LHW or HW (just as Anderson's rightly went up for beating three non-champion LHW's). I should add at this point that I see GSP beating Bisping for the belt as only equivalent to Anderson beating Forest -- it raised his GOAT status a bit, but not significantly.

I also think you're wrong in saying it wasn't primarily about money. Dana is typically quick to say (or even exaggerate) how much he was offering to make a fight that fell through. If he'd done the normal business practice of offering GSP say a guaranteed $5 million above his normal contracted PPV shares etc for going up to 185, then he certainly would have being publicly saying that in order to shame GSP into taking the fight at 185. But Dana didn't even hint at paying extra for going up in weight. And I think the reason is simply that Dana wouldn't want to set that precedent (ie admit that Commerce 101 applies to the UFC), that guys fighting at a weight disadvantage should get the normal business incentive to do so.

In terms of whether GSP is primarily concerned with legacy or money, I also disagree. For a start, GSP would be aware of how many athletes who made far more than he has (Google for a depressingly long list of athletes who made over $100 million who are now broke) were unable to make money after retiring, and who ended up broke. Beyond that, if building up legacy were GSP's prime motivation, he would have done like Anderson did and fight some non-champion MW's (almost everyone but rabid Fedor, Jones and GSP fans rightly give Anderson a lot of credit for those non-title LHW fights). It'd even be the natural build up for a GSP-Anderson fight at 185 ... it'd get GSP used to fighting at MW, and be a natural way to further promote the fight to casuals). The only reason for wanting GSP to fight Anderson at 185 without warm-up fights would be fear of GSP losing one of those warm-up fights -- and that would be about losing money on GSP-Anderson PPV's rather than about status, since if GSP lost a MW warm-up fight then status would already be settled.

GSP's coming back against Bisping but then not defending is I think another example of his worrying about money more than legacy. Not defending was the first case where GSP clearly ducked (at least in what a lot of people say is the meaningful sense of not giving a challenger a title fight). That did more to hurt his legacy than beating Bisping gained for him. And not only his legacy as a fighter, it did a lot of damage to his legacy as a person of honor -- basically it looks like he sold his honor and legacy for a few (well more than a few) dollars. The reason he didn't want to fight Whittaker was that beating him would have done a lot for GSP's legacy, but relatively little for his pocket book -- Whittaker simply isn't a huge draw.

I'm kind of surprised that you say GSP never took risks -- and given the intelligence of your posts, I wonder if you're using risk is a very limited sense? Anybody who gets into the cage (or in fact actually competes in any sport) is taking risks (which is why so many people never compete in anything in their lives). When first starting training MMA GSP would have been, like every other beginner, beaten by all the regulars. Every practice would involve risk (well, probably guarantee) of being beaten, and of being injured. Someone who always played it safe would never have trained MMA, would absolutely never have stepped into the cage for that first fight, would never have gone against Penn or Hughes the first time. Its inherently a very risky business, and it'd have been much safer for him to simply not take part in it.

So I'd say he definitely regularly took risks, like every guy in the UFC (or any high level athlete in every contact sport took risks). However, for him the risk/reward was about money (understandably given that he came from lower middle class, and had no marketable skills) rather than legacy (poor people tend to know you can't eat legacy -- as a lot of ex-stars who end up selling their Superbowl rings because they're broke will attest). His fighting career -- going for decisions (enough to earn victory money), only doing title fights instead of legacy building but less lucrative fights against non-tile MW's (similar to Anderson's) shows concern about money over legacy. Even the fights he's been fishing for since the Bisping fight are about the biggest money fights out there. He wants to fight Khabib at 170. That would add nothing to his legacy (Khabib is a LW, it'd be like beating Penn again) but a lot to his pocket book.

Anyway, thanks for a great discussion. You raise excellent points I hadn't though of, and there's a lot to what you say, even if I ultimately disagree -- its a question of where the balance between legacy and money is for GSP, and though I think its more to money, you make a good case for legacy also being important.

OK, first of all, I am LOVING it!
Sorry for the delay in response, but I had a very busy day (along with me burning 3 fingers on my right hand, which obviously impact my typing
But let's get to it.

I disagree with you that beating BJ Penn is disregarded because Pen came from LW division.
IMHO the biggest issue was the blatant cheating by GSP and his team with the use of vaseline.
But BJ is a legend of the sport, and that triangle (HUghes, GSP & BJ) were amazing and if anything, brought GSP to the center stage along with the (at the time) WW GOAT and LW GOAT.
I mean you can't say it did not elevate GSP. It put him as elite as those two and validated him as a star.

So that kills your assessment that it would do nothing for Silva. Either one that wins that fight would be rendered absolute (UFC) GOAT, contending only against Fedor for MMA GOAT (though I share your opinion and we both know there's only one emperor - WAR FEDOR).

As for them not being equal, while yes (obviously) they are in different Weight classes, they are as close as two dominant champions could be.
I mean, no one claimed DC was a LHW champion when he beat Stipe. Same for CCC beating TJK and grabbing the vacant title....
No, moving one weight class up or down is not the end of the world, and we've seen it far too many times. (AJ, Kenny, etc).

So I disagree with you it would not be good for both (though IMHO they should have fought at 180 Lbs). Not too much extra to take from Silva, but enough to make it a fair fight).

As for not being about money, I can tell you this: If it was about money, Dana would have said something, much as he always does for anyone who asks too much. He LOVES to paint fighters as greedy, and people ALWAYS eat it up (which is beyond me how they don't peg Dana as the greedy one)!
Just look at how he did it recently to Jon Jones, Masvidal, DP, etc. And before you claim this is a new trend, let us not forget he attempted to do the same to Fedor, as he stated he did not join the UFC in spite of how much money they threw at him... and Fedor was fast to shut this lie down.

And come on now! GSP is not your average athlete.
He had movie deals (Capt America, Kickboxer, Cartels, etc), he has his sponsors, he is an ambassador for MMA. So he knows he got money, and he is making more and more despite not competing anymore.
He is NOT one of those who burn money either. So I disagree the issue was money.

Look at how GSP speaks. it is ALWAYS about his legacy. ALWAYS.
That's why he does not risk losing EVER.
GSP & Bisping was an opportunity. The weakest MW champ ever! Get two belts (for his legacy). And while I do agree it hurt his legacy (to run from Whittaker), just look at the ready-made excuses from hs fans. Diverticulities, why he needs to defend belts (he's aboe that) and all that crap! Do you really think anyone will remember the details in a few years? All that matters is that he got 2 belts and was challenging for a third (if Dana did not cock-block him, he'd even get it)!.

Now, at this time, I need to pause it to explain what I meant by GSP "not taking risks".
As I mentioned before, I hate when people hint a fighter was "afraid" of another fighter. They fight for a living for christsakes!!
But I didn't mean it that way.
Instead, let me ilustrate it perfectly with one fight.
do you recall GSP & Koscheck (UFC 124). In the first round, GSP broke Koscheck's orbital bone. Kos was done.
But GSP kept jabbing poor Kos's face for 4 more rounds.
Not ONCE he attempted to end the fight. He knew he could outjab Koscheck and that's what he did...
Koscheck's desperation was clear! He was done! He wanted out. But GSP did not deviate from his gameplan, because it was a safe gameplan. And trying to put Kos away would involve taking more risks.... risk GSP is simply not willing to take. Make sense?

Now, I do agree that fighting all top fighters in his division was a risk, but those were risks he couldn't avoid. Inside the octagon though, he fought for his legacy, and he would not risk it period.

And this is also why he retired IMHO.
He knew he was done the second he got that (gifted) decision from the judges against Hendricks.
And why? Because he got an opportunity to leave on top, unlike Silva, Fedor and so many others.
That's because he minds his legacy above all.

And as for fighting Khabib.... do you REALLY think it would add NOTHING to his legacy???
He would be the ONLY triple champion EVER!!! How is this not legacy defining???

Ok, as I noted, I LOVE this discussion with you!!! You are the reason I still come to sherdog! Our passion and to not debate, but to explain our points of view and learn from others differing views! I hubly thank you for that!!!! And if you are willing we can continue this on!!!

 

[theTKDguy]

No, terrible matchup for him

He still the goat tho

 

[rakeleaves]

Nope

 

[Calipwnia]

Before the fight with Bisping the doctors didnt put the nail on the exact problem and he wasn't yet diagnosed with colitis. GSP's coaches just noticed how sick he constantly was. But that was just Firaz being interviewed by TSN. He had to tell them something worth mentioning. As I said, when GSP was asked in an interview if he wanted to fight Conor, he clearly said no. As for Mayweather i never heard GSP talk about fighting him ever.

Fine. But why didn’t GSP defend his Middleweight title?

 

[Anthony10892]

I don’t think GSP planned on fighting anyone after Bisping. I doubt Robert would give him any issues, but GSP retired because he didn’t want to be an active champ.