Working on the MT Kick

Azam, yeah, thanks for posting that. I started working on that recently to. The way I usually like to roundhouse is with a front kick chamber. Everything comes out straight and turns over in the end. There isn't much of an arc, so it isn't that hard, but it hits "hard enough" plus is way faster.

I started messing with the KK style chamber because my way of doing it is long range. If someone is close, punching distance, I can't kick them in the head. By pulling the chamber up outside and only turning over so far, I can kick harder and higher while closer. It's not bad. The first time I did the kick I actually almost broke my foot hitting the chain holding up an MT heavy bag at a school. I couldn't believe how much higher I kicked with their chamber.

The thing I don't get though is if they rechamber or not. When they hit pads, they rechamber the kick like a normal karate roundhouse, but sometimes when they kick other things / people, they turn their hips through and leave the leg straight. Do they have different names for this or is it just a matter of commitment of the same kick?
 
Azam said:
Since the way KK stylists do it was mentioned & someone expressed some interest thought I'd offer up what I know briefly - the video below is how most KK stylists throw their round houses - with a brief explanation although in japanese - easy to see what is being said:




However their are exceptions - like Ryu Narushima - who is considered by most Kyokushin Karateka to have the most notorious roundhouse kick - he throws it a lot differently to the standard roundhouse - mainly because his flexibility allows him to do it his way (similar to the Matsui way) - he throws his roundhouses in a slightly wider arc but because of his flexibility the arc is in actual fact shorter (most KK roundhouses are thrown at a slightly upward arch whereas Narushima throws his much more horizontally because of his dexterity) - so his kicks are slightly quicker & just as powerful - the only downside is that the max power he can generate happens earlier during his arc when kicking - whereas as most guys generate max power further along the arc when kicking. To illustrate what I mean:


Matsui: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il9ObsFHjVM&t=102m53s

Narushima: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y40d9XX59Rs&t=38m15s


- You'll notice Matsui's arc of his kick his much more upward whereas Narushima's is more horizontal - this is where his flexibility comes into it because they use the same kicking motion. As a result Narushima's arc is wider but technically not because he's used his flexibility to make his kicking arc more horizontal - therefore it's quicker & has more power pound for pound than everyone else in KK but the downfall is the maximum power of his kick is reached alot earlier in his kicking arc than other guys like Matsui & your standard KK guy - which means it extremely less powerful if he wants to follow through - since his the point the power was greatest was earlier during his kicking arc - also makes it near impossible to head kick someone much taller than him without losing balance.
Click to expand...


Great clip and explanation, thanks!
 
Wouldn't Payak serious be beliving alot into something you know isn't true?
 
aries said:
I partly disagree with this, especially the bit in bold. The actual technique varies between MT practitioners but many will actually reverse the direction and step into the kick when they high kick. The idea being that you can kick around the back of their guard, wrap the kick around their neck and enable you to kick high with less flexibility.

A basic summation is:
below elbow height, step across the target
above elbow height step into the target
Click to expand...

I think maybe we misunderstood. I didn't say that the traditional MT didn't step, only that the step progressively worked inward, as you've indicated. The lower the kick, the wider the step out at an angle / or \ vs. the higher the kick the farther inward that step becomes, with the high kick being either stationary, or with a step straight forward.

I used this in comparison to the KK style of kicking, where it is actually the opposite, just not as drastic. Watch the vid Azam just posted, you'll see clearly that the kicker takes a slight step out / or \ as he is throwing the high kick, the lower the kick, the less pronounced that step becomes, exact opposite of what you see in MT.
 
SummerStriker said:
Azam, yeah, thanks for posting that. I started working on that recently to. The way I usually like to roundhouse is with a front kick chamber. Everything comes out straight and turns over in the end. There isn't much of an arc, so it isn't that hard, but it hits "hard enough" plus is way faster.

I started messing with the KK style chamber because my way of doing it is long range. If someone is close, punching distance, I can't kick them in the head. By pulling the chamber up outside and only turning over so far, I can kick harder and higher while closer. It's not bad. The first time I did the kick I actually almost broke my foot hitting the chain holding up an MT heavy bag at a school. I couldn't believe how much higher I kicked with their chamber.

The thing I don't get though is if they rechamber or not. When they hit pads, they rechamber the kick like a normal karate roundhouse, but sometimes when they kick other things / people, they turn their hips through and leave the leg straight. Do they have different names for this or is it just a matter of commitment of the same kick?
Click to expand...

It depends really - traditionally in Kyokushin your taught either to re-chamber your kicks or follow through. It's just a matter of commitment & what purpose you want to achieve in throwing the kick.

When a KK guy throws a round-house with the intention to KO - it will usually be re-chambered - because it doesn't compromise your positioning as much - very rarely will someone follow through if they want to KO - the only times are when they are taking a risk or if someone is visibly tired & less likely to react quick enough to parry, block or move out the way from it.

Usually though, when a KK guy throws a round-house that follows through - there doing it with the intention to break an opponents guard this is generally a result of an opponent that prefers to block/parry rather than moving or an opponent that has a weak guard or one that is too open.
 
the way i was taught to do that kick is that when throwing the kick you return to the same stance you were before you threw the kick. this means that you don't spin around after throwing the kick.
 
Azam said:
It depends really - traditionally in Kyokushin your taught either to re-chamber your kicks or follow through. It's just a matter of commitment & what purpose you want to achieve in throwing the kick.

When a KK guy throws a round-house with the intention to KO - it will usually be re-chambered - because it doesn't compromise your positioning as much - very rarely will someone follow through if they want to KO - the only times are when they are taking a risk or if someone is visibly tired & less likely to react quick enough to parry, block or move out the way from it.

Usually though, when a KK guy throws a round-house that follows through - there doing it with the intention to break an opponents guard this is generally a result of an opponent that prefers to block/parry rather than moving or an opponent that has a weak guard or one that is too open.
Click to expand...

Makes sense. Thanks.
 
ssullivan80 said:
I think maybe we misunderstood. I didn't say that the traditional MT didn't step, only that the step progressively worked inward, as you've indicated. The lower the kick, the wider the step out at an angle / or \ vs. the higher the kick the farther inward that step becomes, with the high kick being either stationary, or with a step straight forward.

I used this in comparison to the KK style of kicking, where it is actually the opposite, just not as drastic. Watch the vid Azam just posted, you'll see clearly that the kicker takes a slight step out / or \ as he is throwing the high kick, the lower the kick, the less pronounced that step becomes, exact opposite of what you see in MT.
Click to expand...

Ok now I'm confused. I thought you were saying the step worked inward and/or got to a point where it didn't move, NOT that it actually started to cross the centre line and actually start travelling in the opposite direction to the step a MT'er would use for a low kick.

The step out for a high kick doesn't just have to be forward, it can be with lateral travel too so that's it's diagonally forward but the opposite way to a low kick. So right low kick I step forward and across to my left with my left foot. Right high kick I step forward and out to my right with my left foot.
 
OK found this which explains what I'm talking about much better than I can!

 
Ohla, necroing my old thread to post some more recent videos working on this kind of kick. I got distracted but I finally had a chance to mess around with a heavy bag.





I can see lots of things to work on myself. These aren't teaching videos. They are self critique videos. Advice is always welcome.

Edit: Some random types of roundhouses put together. The kicking types I do blend together too much and I end up combining the types of kicks.

 
Hey bro, on your vids. Particulary that 1st one. Look at the stance your starting from (compare it to the line on the mat), your starting off really narrow and tall, then your stepping outside the target. In short, your stepping into the kick but your not stepping into the target..... This habit is likely what's keeping you from really being able to get that hip turned over, as you can see in the second vid (shadow kicks).... point of hip on your kicking leg is pointed upward throughout the entire motion and you really want the point up that hip pointed through the target (your hip is pointing like your throwing a high kick, only on your low kicks) I.E: the lower the kick, the lower the point of hip on the kicking leg should be pointed, generally speaking. That's why your getting "crack" or "slap" sound on that bag vs. "thud" and why your upper body remains on centerline when the kick is landing (how ya eat a nasty counter). In all honesty, those mid and low kicks your throwing...... a guy with some experience is gonna step right through that kick and take your head off your shoulders.

Work on getting a balanced and set base, then step into/toward the target to kick it. If you get those hips turned over it will naturally move your upper body off the centerline. It would appear that your kicking or training has been in TMA's vs. MT? It almost looks like your trying to blend a karate/tkd round kick with a MT kick. IMO, that essentially takes away the individual advantages of either kick. It robs the MT kick of the long power arc and the hip drive through the target (the power) and keeps you on centerline when kick lands. For a karate or TKD kick it robs you of the speed and balance to transition into the next strike, as well as taking away the mobitliy to move or defend after that kick. Nonetheless, you have good speed and dexterity, but It certainly seems it could be utilized more effectively if you weren't "blending" techniques.

- next time, RELAX, your awful tense. Move around the bag, circle, in-out and throw your kicks...... Like you would against an opponent.
 
ssullivan80 said:
Hey bro, on your vids. Particulary that 1st one. Look at the stance your starting from (compare it to the line on the mat), your starting off really narrow and tall, then your stepping outside the target. In short, your stepping into the kick but your not stepping into the target..... This habit is likely what's keeping you from really being able to get that hip turned over, as you can see in the second vid (shadow kicks).... point of hip on your kicking leg is pointed upward throughout the entire motion and you really want the point up that hip pointed through the target (your hip is pointing like your throwing a high kick, only on your low kicks) I.E: the lower the kick, the lower the point of hip on the kicking leg should be pointed, generally speaking. That's why your getting "crack" or "slap" sound on that bag vs. "thud" and why your upper body remains on centerline when the kick is landing (how ya eat a nasty counter). In all honesty, those mid and low kicks your throwing...... a guy with some experience is gonna step right through that kick and take your head off your shoulders.

Work on getting a balanced and set base, then step into/toward the target to kick it. If you get those hips turned over it will naturally move your upper body off the centerline. It would appear that your kicking or training has been in TMA's vs. MT? It almost looks like your trying to blend a karate/tkd round kick with a MT kick. IMO, that essentially takes away the individual advantages of either kick. It robs the MT kick of the long power arc and the hip drive through the target (the power) and keeps you on centerline when kick lands. For a karate or TKD kick it robs you of the speed and balance to transition into the next strike, as well as taking away the mobitliy to move or defend after that kick. Nonetheless, you have good speed and dexterity, but It certainly seems it could be utilized more effectively if you weren't "blending" techniques.

- next time, RELAX, your awful tense. Move around the bag, circle, in-out and throw your kicks...... Like you would against an opponent.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Yeah, I do feel tense. I'll try to relax next time I post videos and separate the kicks out better.

I really like my stance, but you are probably right that it makes turning the hip over more work. I'll see what I can do. Thank you.

ssullivan80 said:
It would appear that your kicking or training has been in TMA's vs. MT? It almost looks like your trying to blend a karate/tkd round kick with a MT kick.
Click to expand...

Yes, almost all TMAs. I learned the MT kick mostly from being around MMA people and training at their gyms. I've had two real MT instructors (with MT fights and certificates from Thai instructors for what it is worth) and neither of them really ever had anything constructive to say about how I kick other than, "good job, you kick real hard." I've found good critiquing hard to come by offline.

For this video:



This is the technique I'm trying to get down:



When comparing these two videos, I feel like I'm getting close on some of my better kicks but I'm really inconsistent. Outside of more and more reps, I'm not sure where to go. Looking at the videos side by side, he is way way more relaxed than I am. Originally, I thought he looked sloppy (I did a lot of really rigid TKD / Karate), but now that I'm getting a feel for the kick I think I see what he's getting at.
 
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SummerStriker said:
This is the technique I'm trying to get down:



When comparing these two videos, I feel like I'm getting close on some of my better kicks but I'm really inconsistent. Outside of more and more reps, I'm not sure where to go. Looking at the videos side by side, he is way way more relaxed than I am. Originally, I thought he looked sloppy (I did a lot of really rigid TKD / Karate), but now that I'm getting a feel for the kick I think I see what he's getting at.
Click to expand...


On the still image for video (or pause it anytime his shin makes contact), imagine a straight line extending out (from center) from the point of his hip on kicking leg, where would that line be pointing? Pause a couple of your kicks as your making contact and use that same analogy, you'll see the difference. Your kicks look like they have power, but the power is stopping just at impact vs. driving through impact (crack vs. thud). That's merely a biproduct of your hips not getting all the way over, which is also what keeps your head on centerline vs. the video your using as an example his head is outside of opponents rear shoulder. Notice also, where his upper body is in comparison to his lower, he's getting his shoulder's over top of his hips vs. your's are still behind your hips..... Your leaning back (also makes turning over hips much tougher), he's crunching over (leaning forward) getting his shoulders over his hips....... This is a big reason his head falls off centerline and yours is falling straight down the centerline.

Good drill: put a piece of tape vertically on center of HB, then just start stepping in and tapping it with your jab, you want to throw the kick with that same step into the bag (or a subtle step out / or \) as you use off your jab. But do so making sure your head is outside of that line as your shin makes contact. Step in, plant, pivot n turn hip over.... the more relaxed or "limp" that kicking leg is the more "chop" you'll get into that kick. As you come up on that post leg, let your rear or kickin leg go completely slack (like a wet noodle), then let your hips swing or whip that leg over into the target (tense up leg at impact, through follow through.... i.e: drive it through).
 
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ssullivan80 said:
Imagine a straight line extending out (from center) from the point of his hip on kicking leg, where would that line be pointing? Pause a couple of your kicks as your making contact and use that same analogy, you'll see the difference. Your kicks look like they have power, but the power is stopping just at impact vs. driving through impact (crack vs. thud). That's merely a biproduct of your hips not getting all the way over, which is also what keeps your head on centerline vs. the video your using as an example his head is outside of opponents rear shoulder.

Good drill: put a piece of tape vertically on center of HB, then just start stepping in and tapping it with your jab, you want to throw the kick with that same step into the bag (or a subtle step out / or \) as you use off your jab. But do so making sure your head is outside of that line as your shin makes contact. Step in, plant, pivot n turn hip over.... the more relaxed or "limp" that kicking leg is the more "chop" you'll get into that kick. As you come up on that post leg, let your rear or kickin leg go completely slack (like a wet noodle), then let your hips swing or whip that leg over into the target (tense up leg at impact, through follow through.... i.e: drive it through).
Click to expand...

Thanks man. That's concrete. I'll start working on that tomorrow. I appreciate it.
 
Sullivan, I get having the shoulders over the hip for "pivot kicks" which is the kind I did more, but watching him and learning about the traditional kick, I thought the shoulder was behind the hips - that throwing the arm and shoulder back was to counter the pivoting motion and keep you from going 360. To me, it looks like his hips go ahead of his shoulders.
 
Never mind, I see it. His hips and shoulder go together, but the arm throws back so that it crosses the leg in the middle and the the shoulders rotate back before the hip. The kick they are together, but the break starts with the arm swing dragging the shoulder.

That sound right?
 
SummerStriker said:
When comparing these two videos, I feel like I'm getting close on some of my better kicks but I'm really inconsistent. Outside of more and more reps, I'm not sure where to go. Looking at the videos side by side, he is way way more relaxed than I am. Originally, I thought he looked sloppy (I did a lot of really rigid TKD / Karate), but now that I'm getting a feel for the kick I think I see what he's getting at.
Click to expand...

It's hard to tell because you are wearing jogging bottoms but it doesn't look like you are bending your support leg nearly enough. The MT instruction video by comparison has quite a big bend in his support leg.

The other thing (which isn't possible to see from the camera set up) I would suspect is a problem for you is the support foot. I doubt it's turning enough. Looking at your hips, you have problems turning them over. If you don't have enough knee bend you will find it hard to turn on the ball of your foot as well. Your heel should be facing your target at the end of your kick.

The two are linked bend your support leg more and you'll be able to come up on the ball of your foot and turn it more easily. Then I think you'll find your hips turn over much more easily.
 
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