Working on the MT Kick

[SummerStriker]

Great stuff man. Thanks. I'm starting to understand the science of it better. I suppose I was never taught step kicking - just pivot kicking, sometimes with a step.

So, one big issue in a recent thread was the spinning through of the kick 360. Here is how I used to do it (last half) vs. how I'm trying to do it now.





What do you think of the arc of the kick? I'm not spinning all the way through. Instead, I'm throwing it in an arc so that my foot comes down and I only go 180. Some people advocate pulling the knee up. I like going down. Is what I'm doing here ok?

 

[SummerStriker]

You look off balance is the first thing I noticed. Like I could lightly tap your shoulder and you'd fall backwards because you are leaning too far back. That amount of lean would be ok for a higher kick but not for a low kick.

It wasn't too bad but on the other video, were they teeps you were doing? I ask because they look more like snap kicks.

Yeah, I here ya on the leaning. Sullivan was just on that to. I'll start working on it.

And yes, those were snap kick rather than teeps.

 

[ssullivan80]

Great stuff man. Thanks. I'm starting to understand the science of it better. I suppose I was never taught step kicking - just pivot kicking, sometimes with a step.

So, one big issue in a recent thread was the spinning through of the kick 360. Here is how I used to do it (last half) vs. how I'm trying to do it now.

What do you think of the arc of the kick? I'm not spinning all the way through. Instead, I'm throwing it in an arc so that my foot comes down and I only go 180. Some people advocate pulling the knee up. I like going down. Is what I'm doing here ok?

Odly enough, your "pivot kicking" in the first video and "step n kicking" in the second. Watch closely, your taking a step out in the second video. You have really good hip flexibility brotha.

What your doing in the second video is "shortening the arc" by using that step. Neither is "wrong" per se and I like the angle your shin is traveling. What is wrong, IMO is using that step if your going to be pivot kicking. It basically defeats the entire principal/purpose and avantage of that style of kicking. If your gonna step, step n open your hips and you'd be better off just swinging it through, or you end up with a more telegraphed kick that robs itself of power. Your taking the step, but not opening the hips with that step, which is the entire purpose of using that step in the first place. This is the reason your kick looks telegraphed is because your stepping to open the hips (but leaving them closed) then using the upper body mechanics as if you weren't taking that step....... as other posters noted, your leading too early with that shoulder because your not opening the hips when your stepping (if your gonna step n kick, see below in red where explained in prior post).

So here's what ya wanna try (low kicking) if your really focusing on pivot kicking for your low kicks. Just like you did in the initial video, you were pivot kicking. But in trying to shorten the arc of the kick you compensated in the second video by using a step. Instead of using that step, getting your weight farther forward (as described in prior post) over your hips and delaying that pivot will sink your weight heavier on to that lead leg. In which case you'll be able to use that same arc you did when swinging 360degrees, but you'll only have to swing 180degrees like you did in second clip. The ball of that foot on kicking leg should really drive down into the floor like your trying to "hammer a nail straight into the floor". This requires great balance, particularly when shadowkicking, but you appear to have the hip flexibility to do it. When you get it right, you'll be able to throw your high and mid kicks with the same downward chopping motion and not have to spin the full 360degrees....... (Feitosa). This style of kicking really requires the pivot foot to be far more drastically torqued (counterclockwise) than a typical MT kick. See pic below, give ya an idea. This was for a high kick, but you can see where the point of the hip n shoulder on kicking leg side are well ahead (pointing downward) of the heel on the pivot foot (also why my knees are completely shredded from years of doing this).

If your going to practice this method of kicking, work on shadowkicking with the 360 degree spin for mid/high kicks, only imagine kicking a football off a tee on your follow through the exact opposite direction of the target your kicking at (pic above, imagine if I were to turn my head, arch back and pull up chin. looking straight the opposite direction, kicking the football off tee). Once you get that mechanically, all you have to do to shorten the arc on the kick/follow through is sink down heavier on the post leg. So instead of the kick swing back through (kicking football off tee) it just drives straight down into the mat (hammer hitting nail through mat analogy).

 

[Zephyros]

This is a great thread. Don't think I've ever read such a concise discussion on this topic. Is there a way to pivot the low kick without shredding the knees? Does having the kicking side shoulder and hip ahead of the heel generate power and that downward angle that the "typical MT kick" cannot?

 

[ssullivan80]

This is a great thread. Don't think I've ever read such a concise discussion on this topic. Is there a way to pivot the low kick without shredding the knees? Does having the kicking side shoulder and hip ahead of the heel generate power and that downward angle that the "typical MT kick" cannot?

It generates power in a more compact motion, in closer and at a different (more drastic) angle than the typical MT kick (to think of it in punching mechanics terminology. right over hand (pivot/chop kick) vs right hook (mt kick).....). But if your asking about power in general, or the most powerful way to throw a kick. The traditional MT "step / out and kick through" still generates a more powerful kick, as the "band/arc" of the kick is designed to really swing all your body weight through the target with more mass behind the kick. The "power band" of the kick is much wider in a traditional MT kick, so it doesn't require as well timed and executed kick to be as effective as the pivot/chopping kick does, margin of error is higher for the kick to still be effective.

But IMO, what you lose in power you gain in being able to transition into your kicks faster, throw them at much closer range (I actually throw kicks like this in a clinch) and have fewer kicks checked or blocked. So the trade off is worth it. Still I use both methods depending on application and purpose and both have their place. It's not so much a right or wrong way, just a different way. The when, why and how is what determines the effectiveness of either method. Still, If I had a stationary target and my only goal was just to kick it as hard as I possibly could, then the traditional MT kick would be the kick i'd use.

As for how to "not shred the knees", if there's a way, I never figured it out. The pivot kicking method has always put far more strain on the knees, just due to the mechanics of the kick. The more flexible your hips, the less strain it puts on the knees though. Same conceptually as why throwing an OH right is going to put more strain on the rotator cuff in your shoulder than a right hook will.

 

[PeterPain]

The only thing I find odd in second video.
At 26second shift kick to kick in southpaw stance?
You Shift or you Switch?
I come from ambidextrous family so I usualy prefer to just go with the flow and switch without a shift step but that's me.

 

[SummerStriker]

Odly enough, your "pivot kicking" in the first video and "step n kicking" in the second. Watch closely, your taking a step out in the second video. You have really good hip flexibility brotha.

What your doing in the second video is "shortening the arc" by using that step. Neither is "wrong" per se and I like the angle your shin is traveling. What is wrong, IMO is using that step if your going to be pivot kicking. It basically defeats the entire principal/purpose and avantage of that style of kicking. If your gonna step, step n open your hips and you'd be better off just swinging it through, or you end up with a more telegraphed kick that robs itself of power. Your taking the step, but not opening the hips with that step, which is the entire purpose of using that step in the first place. This is the reason your kick looks telegraphed is because your stepping to open the hips (but leaving them closed) then using the upper body mechanics as if you weren't taking that step....... as other posters noted, your leading too early with that shoulder because your not opening the hips when your stepping (if your gonna step n kick, see below in red where explained in prior post).

So here's what ya wanna try (low kicking) if your really focusing on pivot kicking for your low kicks. Just like you did in the initial video, you were pivot kicking. But in trying to shorten the arc of the kick you compensated in the second video by using a step. Instead of using that step, getting your weight farther forward (as described in prior post) over your hips and delaying that pivot will sink your weight heavier on to that lead leg. In which case you'll be able to use that same arc you did when swinging 360degrees, but you'll only have to swing 180degrees like you did in second clip. The ball of that foot on kicking leg should really drive down into the floor like your trying to "hammer a nail straight into the floor". This requires great balance, particularly when shadowkicking, but you appear to have the hip flexibility to do it. When you get it right, you'll be able to throw your high and mid kicks with the same downward chopping motion and not have to spin the full 360degrees....... (Feitosa). This style of kicking really requires the pivot foot to be far more drastically torqued (counterclockwise) than a typical MT kick. See pic below, give ya an idea. This was for a high kick, but you can see where the point of the hip n shoulder on kicking leg side are well ahead (pointing downward) of the heel on the pivot foot (also why my knees are completely shredded from years of doing this).

If your going to practice this method of kicking, work on shadowkicking with the 360 degree spin for mid/high kicks, only imagine kicking a football off a tee on your follow through the exact opposite direction of the target your kicking at (pic above, imagine if I were to turn my head, arch back and pull up chin. looking straight the opposite direction, kicking the football off tee). Once you get that mechanically, all you have to do to shorten the arc on the kick/follow through is sink down heavier on the post leg. So instead of the kick swing back through (kicking football off tee) it just drives straight down into the mat (hammer hitting nail through mat analogy).

I think I get it. I'll work on it over the next week and put up another video later on when I think I've made some changes. Thanks for the help.

With the step with the pivot kick, I do think it makes the kick harder because the step adds some momentum to the kick that it wouldn't have otherwise, and I can use the step to orient the kick to the target if it wasn't lined up perfectly to start (though you make a good point that if it telegraphs, they will just step with me and nothing is gained). So I may still do the step sometimes, but I'll try to isolate the pivot so that the step isn't habit. Sound ok?

The high kick driving down like that makes a lot of sense. I guess for street fighting, you need good shoes on, or be standing on soft grass. Fighting in a ring or on a mat is probably good, but hitting the ground that hard barefoot on hard ground wouldn't be very fun.

Thanks!

 

[cuality]

good luck

 

[ssullivan80]

I think I get it. I'll work on it over the next week and put up another video later on when I think I've made some changes. Thanks for the help.

With the step with the pivot kick, I do think it makes the kick harder because the step adds some momentum to the kick that it wouldn't have otherwise, and I can use the step to orient the kick to the target if it wasn't lined up perfectly to start (though you make a good point that if it telegraphs, they will just step with me and nothing is gained). So I may still do the step sometimes, but I'll try to isolate the pivot so that the step isn't habit. Sound ok?

The high kick driving down like that makes a lot of sense. I guess for street fighting, you need good shoes on, or be standing on soft grass. Fighting in a ring or on a mat is probably good, but hitting the ground that hard barefoot on hard ground wouldn't be very fun.

Thanks!

It's not the step that is the issue, it's where your stepping too (you step n kick in your first video too, but your stepping straight forward). If your going to pivot kick, there's no need to step off line or out an angle since it defeats the purpose of this type of kick. If that's what your going to do, then step n kick like a more traditional MT kick. If your going to step out or offline, then it's more efficient and judicious to simultaneously open up your hips as you take that step (low kicking). High kicks are a bit different and stepping off line (lateral step) and pivot kicking is a way to throw the kick high in much closer proximity to your opponent than they'd expect. (this is how you can use the bob n weave, to bait high kicks...... PeterPain - if your paying attention)

If your going to take a step into that pivot kick, step straight into the target, like you would to throw a basic jab. This will add more power/momentum without taking away the most advantageous method of using this style of kicking, the fact that it is less telegraphed, faster transition, more compact and can be thrown at closer range. Stepping out or at an angle takes away the very advantage this type of kicking is designed for and you'd be better served just using a more traditional MT kick if that is the case, as it will have more power over a longer/wider striking range. Another reason why it's so important to be able to use both methods of kicking, as they both provide significant advantages, but those advantages are situation specific.

 

[SummerStriker]

It's not the step that is the issue, it's where your stepping too (you step n kick in your first video too, but your stepping straight forward). If your going to pivot kick, there's no need to step off line or out an angle since it defeats the purpose of this type of kick. If that's what your going to do, then step n kick like a more traditional MT kick. If your going to step out or offline, then it's more efficient and judicious to simultaneously open up your hips as you take that step.

If your going to take a step into that pivot kick, step straight into the target, like you would to throw a basic jab. This will add more power/momentum without taking away the most advantageous method of using this style of kicking, the fact that it is less telegraphed, faster transition, more compact and can be thrown at closer range. Stepping out or at an angle takes away the very advantage this type of kicking is designed for and you'd be better served just using a more traditional MT kick if that is the case, as it will have more power over a longer/wider striking range. Another reason why it's so important to be able to use both methods of kicking, as they both provide significant advantages, but those advantages are situation specific.

I got ya.

The situations where the more traditional MT kick is more useful than the pivot kick, I use the TKD / Karate style kicks that I'm already good at. I think it is this specific pivot kick that fills a nitch in my striking.

I'll think it over. Because the impact of the pivot kick as I do it is from the side, stepping to the side seems to add power. Stepping straight in adds force in a different direction than the hit, so I don't know if it will help me.

While I step in practice, I can't think of ever stepping and hitting with the pivot kick in actual sparring, so my end of that may be a functional non-issue. The kick really is always right from the combo or a counter to their step.

I am basically untrained in the traditional MT step kick, and would have to find a teacher who does it if I wanted to start using it. I don't know that I am capable of putting it together from videos.

 

[ssullivan80]

I got ya.

The situations where the more traditional MT kick is more useful than the pivot kick, I use the TKD / Karate style kicks that I'm already good at. I think it is this specific pivot kick that fills a nitch in my striking.

I'll think it over. Because the impact of the pivot kick as I do it is from the side, stepping to the side seems to add power. Stepping straight in adds force in a different direction than the hit, so I don't know if it will help me.

While I step in practice, I can't think of ever stepping and hitting with the pivot kick in actual sparring, so my end of that may be a functional non-issue. The kick really is always right from the combo or a counter to their step.

I am basically untrained in the traditional MT step kick, and would have to find a teacher who does it if I wanted to start using it. I don't know that I am capable of putting it together from videos.

There in lies another difference in the pivot kick, used as a low kick. You don't want to be aiming the kick at the side of the leg. Ideally, you really want to aim the kick for the shin to come down on the front of the thigh/above the knee (Guys who are really good at this will actually "kick down" a lifted check leg). Imagine aiming the kick so that you'd be driving your opponents knee straight down and back (hence, hammer and nail analogy). Remember the power on this kick is (should be) downward vs. across/through like a more traditional MT kick. Step straight in, pivot kick, driving shin downward through target (why it's so important to get that weight moving forward over the hips, it let's you "press" or drive that shin down through the target).

You'd probably find with minimal instruction that the step n kick, or more traditional MT kick would be fairly easy for you to learn to use well. Pivot kicking as your doing really is more difficult to learn as it requires a more intricate movement, smaller center of balance and more flexibility in the hips. Guys who come from TMA backgrounds (TKD, Karate) have a much easier time learning this type of kick. Hence, why you see it used far more by Dutch or European fighters (Kyokushin roots vs. Muay Thai).

 

[SummerStriker]

So pivot kick the force comes straight in and down, and the traditional it comes in from the side?

I really think what I've been doing is a mix of the two kicks.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

My 2cent, turn your shoulders more on your low kick.
When you high kick you lead with your shoulder , then your hip comes through and then your leg whips.
When you low kick you snap your arm back so much that it pulls your upper body back. That means when you kick your hip leads and power is lost turning your upper body to follow. Think of yourself in water when you kick and your arm is scooping the water behind you, rather than just snapping it back as a counter balance.
If your having problems with the pivot try angling your foot 90deg to the target. It will make you naturally want to turn your body into the kick, and also keep a bend in your knee to make it easier to drop your weight into the kick.

 

[SummerStriker]

My 2cent, turn your shoulders more on your low kick.
When you high kick you lead with your shoulder , then your hip comes through and then your leg whips.
When you low kick you snap your arm back so much that it pulls your upper body back. That means when you kick your hip leads and power is lost turning your upper body to follow. Think of yourself in water when you kick and your arm is scooping the water behind you, rather than just snapping it back as a counter balance.
If your having problems with the pivot try angling your foot 90deg to the target. It will make you naturally want to turn your body into the kick, and also keep a bend in your knee to make it easier to drop your weight into the kick.

Got ya. Thank you.

 

[ssullivan80]

So pivot kick the force comes straight in and down, and the traditional it comes in from the side?

I really think what I've been doing is a mix of the two kicks.

Thanks for the clarification.

The second video you posted is definitely a mix of the two, with the step out / or \. All that step is going to do if your pivot kicking is make your kick land lower on the shin toward the foot. VS landing the kick deeper on the shin with more of your weight behind it (stepping straight into the kick). With the more traditional MT kick (NAKMUAY18 explained perfectly), that step out to 90 degrees get's the shin landing deeper (the bat), as the step is what opens the hips. The MT kick is more liken to swinging a bat through vs. the pivot kick is more like swinging a hammer down through the leg.

But yes, the pivot kick (im describing) has a much shorter power arc and is designed to come straight down and through. The power is moving downward high to low, to the target and into the mat/floor/etc...... vs. MT kick it's moving high to low (much less drastic) and all the way through the target 360degrees (not into the mat/floor).

The traditional MT kick comes out a bit wider and swings all the way through the target. In short, you may be swinging the kick at the lead leg, but your swinging it like it's gonna go through both leg. Against a powerful MT kicker, if you pick the check leg up too high or in front of you vs. out to the side, they'll swing that kick right through/under the check and you'll be doing mid-air cartwheels (post leg gets chopped out).

 

[SummerStriker]

Thinking through the science to my satisfaction:

The pivot kick turns you in a circle. The kick can deliver its force at any point. It can deliver the hit sooner by hitting straight into the leg, or a little later by turning further and hitting the side of the opponent's leg.

If you hit later, step to the side so that your step is in the direction the force is delivered. If the hit is sooner, step directly into the person so that your step is in the direct the force is delivered.

The step, however, isn't necessary because the advantage of the kick is the speed and close range at which it can be delivered. Because speed and close range is the real advantage, it makes sense to deliver the force right straight into their leg, because traveling counter clockwise, your force gets to 3 (going straight ahead) before it gets to 12, traveling across (the force is 90 degrees to the direction the hip is from the center of the circle).

With the pivot kick, I can throw the shoulder more with the hip because sinking into the leg and directing the force into the ground after passing the target (shadow boxing or on a miss) is how you prevent going in a circle.

With the traditional MT kick, the step is across, the shoulder rotation is opposite the hip rotation, the leg is more extended, and the force dissipates more in the air rather than directed into the ground. On the traditional MT kick with the step, the hips open up and use a rubber band effect to pull the kick across. Because there is no threat of over rotating, the support knee is naturally protected and I don't have to spin around.

 

[SummerStriker]

The second video you posted is definitely a mix of the two, with the step out / or \. All that step is going to do if your pivot kicking is make your kick land lower on the shin toward the foot. VS landing the kick deeper on the shin with more of your weight behind it.

But yes, the pivot kick (im describing) has a much shorter power arc and is designed to come straight down and through. The power is moving downward high to low, to the target and into the mat/floor/etc...... vs. MT kick it's moving high to low (much less drastic) and all the way through the target 360degrees (not into the mat/floor).

The traditional MT kick comes out a bit wider and swings all the way through the target. In short, you may be swinging the kick at the lead leg, but your swinging it like it's gonna go through both leg. Against a powerful MT kicker, if you pick the check leg up too high or in front of you vs. out to the side, they'll swing that kick right through/under the check and you'll be doing mid-air cartwheels (post leg gets chopped out).

Got ya.

Edit - thanks against for all the help. I appreciate it. I can't promise I'm going to start doing it exactly how you prescribe, because I still think I can hit to the side of the leg with the pivot kick and that the step adds speed, but I will faithfully experiment with it on the bag and work on the kicks components more scientifically, with notes on everything you wrote, and take it to the gym later this week and show it to people there. Whatever I get from it all will be more sound than what I'm doing now and it will let me cut out the 360 spin, the desire to so is what alerted me to there being things wrong with my kick.

 

[ssullivan80]

Thinking through the science to my satisfaction:

The pivot kick turns you in a circle. The kick can deliver its force at any point. It can deliver the hit sooner by hitting straight into the leg, or a little later by turning further and hitting the side of the opponent's leg.

If you hit later, step to the side so that your step is in the direction the force is delivered. If the hit is sooner, step directly into the person so that your step is in the direct the force is delivered.

The step, however, isn't necessary because the advantage of the kick is the speed and close range at which it can be delivered. Because speed and close range is the real advantage, it makes sense to deliver the force right straight into their leg, because traveling counter clockwise, your force gets to 3 (going straight ahead) before it gets to 12, traveling across (the force is 90 degrees to the direction the hip is from the center of the circle).

With the pivot kick, I can throw the shoulder more with the hip because sinking into the leg and directing the force into the ground after passing the target (shadow boxing or on a miss) is how you prevent going in a circle.

With the traditional MT kick, the step is across, the shoulder rotation is opposite the hip rotation, the leg is more extended, and the force dissipates more in the air rather than directed into the ground. On the traditional MT kick with the step, the hips open up and use a rubber band effect to pull the kick across. Because there is no threat of over rotating, the support knee is naturally protected and I don't have to spin around.

Ya got it brotha!

You'll get some very contradicting advice depending on the training background of who's giving it. A traditional Muay Thai purist is going to see this technique far different than a Kyokushin, Dutch MT, TKD or Karate practitioner will, so take it accordingly and make your own observations through implementation. The ideal technique, is the one that's effective for the individual practitioner.

An interesting way to see the technically fundamental differences between MT purist vs. Kyokushin or "Dutch MT" practitioners is with the concept of the "step out" when kicking. The traditional MT fighter will step out farther on a low kick and that step will progressively work inward as the height of the kick increases, to being either non-existent or extremely subtle when they throw the kick as a head kick. The Kyokushin/TMA or Dutch MT (pivot kicker) practitioner will do the opposite almost, as the kick get's higher they will subtly step out (laterally) a little bit more (not as drastic as the mt example, but still clearly apparent if you watch closely). In short, they'll do the exact opposite with the step n kick principal (given same/similar proximity to target as well. The MT purist will need more space/separation vertically as the kick gets higher vs. more space horizontally for the other....... if that makes sense ?).

 

[SAAMAG]

You guys sure know how to take something simple and make it complicated.

 

[peanut66]

to the ts ,

are you working your kicks for muay thai only or kick boxing in general ?

in kickboxing it is just as important to practice kicks without using the follow thru method , the follow thru method is designed to get a person back into their fighting stance without switching stance ,

when combinations or pursuing a person becoms a factor the follow thru /step pivot method is alot slower , that is why the pivoting as you kick and recoiling the kick is implemented in most tma's , it is good to learn both and be able to mix in to your kicking game ,

the paricular kick you are working on is a chopping low kick , it can be used on the front of the opponents leg or the side , depends on where you do your step pivot , you can chop down on the neck with the same kick , you should be also practicing going striaght across the body and also chopping on an angle upwards ,

i personally dont like to practice kicks without a heavy bag or hand pads , i find it screws up technique rather than helps it , your body has to do certain unnecccesary motions in order to control the kick and it just plain fucks up your knees , i would much rather smash a bag or mitts , it gives you some resistance.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[MED...ean forward and sit on a kick as ernesto does