Workers Compensation for Off-Duty Police Officers wounded protecting people in another State?

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In the midst of Las Vegas mass shooting, off-duty first-responders from Southern California worked to save lives
By Susan Abram | October 2, 2017​

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Rachael Parker, a Manhattan Beach Police Records Technician was killed in the Las Vegas shooting Sunday Night.

They told people to get down. They shielded those who fell.

Some loaded victims into ambulances. Others comforted the dying.

They too, became victims.

As a gunman opened fire into a massive crowd during Sunday night’s Route 91 Harvest Festival in Las Vegas, off-duty first responders-police officers, deputies, firefighters and paramedics, from across Southern California did what they always do. They reached out to help.

Melanie Cooper, a 16-year veteran of the Orange County Sheriff’s Department raced to a man she saw lying on his back to administer CPR. She kept talking to him.

“Hang in there,” she told him.

But the man died.

“It still keeps going through my head,” Cooper, 51, said Monday. “There was no way to help yourself or anybody else. People were going down all around me. I keep hearing those gunshots going off and off and off and off.”

At least 59 people died in the shooting, more than 500 injured.

Among those killed was Rachael Parker, 10-year civilian employee of the Manhattan Beach Police Department. A records technician, Parker died in a hospital, according to a news release.

A sworn officer also was shot and sustained minor injuries, but was not named.

Both were with a group of four off-duty Manhattan Beach police employees who attended the country music festival on the Las Vegas Strip. The other two were apparently unharmed.

Ontario police officer Michael Gracia, 24, was shot in the head during Sunday night’s mass shooting in Las Vegas. he underwent surgery Monday and was in critical but stable condition, officials said.

Gracia and his fiancee were both wounded.

After Gracia was hurt, his fiancee, Summer, tried to cover him and was shot as well, according to Jesse Rivera, a friend of Gracia’s from Bonita High School in La Verne.

“The love between those two are real and they are new parents and new parents shouldn’t be going through this,” he said.

At least 20 off-duty Los Angeles Police Department officers attended the festival. An officer from the LAPD’s Foothill Division was injured.

Several people from the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department also attended the event, said Sheriff Jim McDonnell in a news conference. Two were injured, one critically, he said.

Los Angeles city and county fire department officials said several of their members were injured in the mass shooting during the country music concert in Las Vegas late Sunday.

Los Angeles Fire Chief Ralph Terrazas said in a statement Monday his department learned that two of the seven off-duty members were struck by gunfire.

“Thankfully, their wounds do not appear to be life-threatening,” Terrazas said in a statement. “Our thoughts and prayers are with them and their families and all of the people affected by this horrific and senseless tragedy.”

Three off-duty Los Angeles County Fire officials also were struck by gunfire, officials from the department said in a statement Monday. They sustained non-life threatening injuries, according to fire officials.

At least eight off-duty Long Beach police officers were at or near the Las Vegas concert, including Officer Rudy Rios who said in the chaos he concentrated on keeping his girlfriend and small group of people he was with safe. He was frustrated he couldn’t help more.

“I think that’s the hardest part, that I couldn’t help,” he said. “I didn’t have any of my tools. I didn’t have any of my coworkers to help.”

An Orange County sheriff’s deputy and two spouses of Orange County deputies were wounded in the Las Vegas mass shooting, officials said.

For some concert-goers, being in law enforcement or related to those who are, may have saved them.

Amy Moore was standing in the middle of the crowd when she heard the quick, successive popping sounds coming from a distance. She knew it wasn’t firecrackers.

“My whole family is in law enforcement,” the 26-year-old Valencia resident said Monday. “Those gunshots sounded like I was at the shooting range.”

Moore said she had gone to the concert with six friends, including her brother Kevin Moore, a 31-year-old LAPD officer. She and some of her friends became separated. Her brother found her and her friend Christina first, found another friend, then calmly helped the injured into ambulances, she said.

“I’m glad my brother was there,” she said.

Cooper, the Orange County investigator, said she too thought she was going to die.

“I didn’t expect to leave that place,” Cooper said. “I was trying to stay low, trying to think about the best way to get out. It was almost like our training, but those are rubber bullets. You get to go home. This was real. I felt completely helpless. I was waiting for bullets to hit me.”

When she got back to her room, Cooper got to her gun and her phone. She texted her three adult children.

“I’m good,” she wrote.



Southern California police injured in Las Vegas mass shooting heroism denied workers’ comp due to state law
By Jordan Graham | October 23, 2017​

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As bullets rained down on a Las Vegas concert crowd this month, killing dozens, many of the 200-plus Southern California police officers attending the festival shifted instantly into law-enforcement mode.

They sprang to action – shepherding people to safety, performing CPR and helping local authorities secure the area – sometimes getting gunshot wounds or injuries in the process.

But as those wounded officers have begun filing for public-employee benefits to cover the long-term medical care some might need to recover from the trauma, local cities and counties are asking themselves whether they’re required or even allowed to pay to treat off-duty police who chose independently to intervene in an out-of-state emergency. And due to some muddy language in California’s labor code, it’s unclear whether the municipalities will have to pony up.

On Monday, Orange County rejected workers’ compensation claims from four sheriff’s deputies injured in the shooting, paving the way for a court battle that could force appellate judges to eventually decide an untested issue touching several counties and cities in Southern California.

In Los Angeles County, which is considering whether to grant claims from two of its deputies shot Oct. 1 at the Route 91 Harvest festival, officials acknowledged they have no policy on how to handle such requests and said they expect the issue will result in litigation. Several other officers from Southern California law enforcement departments also plan to file claims in the near future, according to police unions, potentially forcing as many seven other municipalities – including San Bernardino and Riverside counties – to soon consider similar questions.

If the claims are approved, it could put taxpayers on the hook for years of medical expenses, allow officers to retire early on disability and guarantee injured officers paid time off in the short term. If officers begin to claim injuries related to PTSD suffered during the shooting – as two deputies in Orange County did – it also could open the door for scores of additional filings.

In San Bernardino County, which employs 11 deputies who attended the festival, including Sgt. Brad Powers, who was shot in the leg in Las Vegas, the deputies’ union has initiated talks with the sheriff’s department to advocate that Powers be treated as an on-duty injury.

A year ago, when San Bernardino County faced a high number of workers’ compensation claims following a terrorist attack that killed 14 people and injured 22 others, most of them county employees, the county faced criticisms after some victims saidthey were denied medical treatments. In response, state Assemblywoman Eloise Gomez Reyes (D-San Bernardino) authored a law that required workplaces impacted by an act of domestic terrorism to hire a nurse case manager to help employees with their claims.

Steve Nyblom, a manager in Los Angeles County’s risk management branch, which is weighing claims from two local deputies shot in Las Vegas, said a similar legislative intervention may be needed to clarify the labor code in light of the looming disputes.

“There is that vague issue, subject to interpretation, and issues relating to legislative intent should be clarified by the legislature,” Nyblom said.

Had all those officers been shot and injured while responding to a mass-killing in California, they likely would be taken care of without dispute. But because they were shot in Nevada instead, their life-saving efforts could cost them dearly.

California’s labor code states that public agencies are required to pay benefits to off-duty police officers injured while engaging in “protection or preservation of life or property, or the preservation of the peace anywhere in this state,” even if the officer “is not at the time acting under the immediate direction of his employer.” Out-of-state events are not mentioned, spurring multiple interpretations of the law.

“The statute does not allow counties to cover off-duty conduct outside of states,” Orange County Supervisor Todd Spitzer said, expressing a view shared by county lawyers. “These police officers went into their instinctive training mode… and I don’t think they should be punished because they trusted their instincts. But it requires a legislative fix to the statute to extend workers’ benefits for out-of-state conduct.”

However, local workers’ compensation attorneys disagree with Orange County’s interpretation of state law. And the union representing Orange County’s sheriff’s deputies has said that if the county denied its members’ claims, the agency would be abandoning officers who were acting in accordance with their department’s training.

“The sheriff’s department has an expectation of its sworn members to take whatever actions are necessary to preserve life wherever they’re at,” said Tom Dominguez, president of the Association of Orange County Deputy Sheriffs. “If they deny the claims, then the message that they’re sending to their peace officers is not to take action when it is certainly warranted.”

“Everybody’s watching what happens with these cases,” Dominguez added.

Three worker’s compensation lawyers offered the Southern California News Group three distinct interpretations of the state code, each of which would permit local agencies to extend benefits to the officers injured in Las Vegas.

One attorney said a separate labor statute allows agencies to voluntarily extend benefits regardless of obligation. A second lawyer said the law about off-duty claims didn’t exclude out-of-state injuries because it didn’t mention them at all. And a third said an extra comma in the phrasing of the law suggests there are no geographical limitations on benefit coverage if police are attempting to save lives when injured.

“When it comes to the (phrase) ‘preservation of life,’ there is no restriction on where that officer might be,” said John Ferrone, a partner at the West Lake Village-based law firm Adams Ferrone & Ferrone, which represents several Southern California police unions.

“It makes sense to us that the legislature meant protection of life would not have any limitation, because if police are out of state trying to save lives, do we want to limit it as a public policy?” Ferrone said.

California’s police officers are not uniformly trained to intervene in crimes while off work, according to the state’s Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training. But the commission stated that local agencies may have their own policies about off-duty engagement.

The Orange County Sheriff’s Department said its academy includes training that teaches deputies how to decide whether to respond to some incidents while off duty. But the department did not respond to questions about whether it instructs officers on how to intervene in out-of-state or life-threatening situations. Dominguez said the department’s training does not differentiate between in-state and out-of-state responses for officers.

In Bakersfield, where 14 local officers attended the Las Vegas musical festival, including officer Aaron Mundhenke, who was shot in the hip, the local police union has advised its members to seek legal advice if they are considering filing claims. But the union president, Officer Ramon Chavez, said he understands the city’s potential predicament, “because there are 14 people, and if all these officers go out on stress, if they cover one, they’ll probably have to cover everybody else.”

Though Orange County has denied its deputies’ claims, two county supervisors have proposed creating a policy to provide paid time off for off-duty employees who are wounded while trying to save lives in out-of-state “mass casualty” events. The sheriff’s union remains concerned that the plan wouldn’t cover the long-term medical care.

“If the county believed the law was on the side of these applicants, these claims would not be rejected,” Orange County counsel Leon Page said. “But there’s no wiggle room, there’s no discretion.”

“There’s no ill will here,” Page said. “We just think the law is clear.”



More than 200 California cops were at the Las Vegas shooting. Should they get workers' comp?
By Associated Press | Oct 26, 2017

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Ontario, Calif., police officer Michael Gracia and his fiancee Summer Clayburn are welcomed home as they return from Las Vegas at an airfield in La Verne, Calif., on Oct. 6, 2017. Gracia was shot in the head and Clayburn was also injured in the mass shooting on Oct. 1.
Four Orange County, Calif., sheriff's deputies injured in the Las Vegas county music festival massacre have been denied workers' compensation and court battles may be looming for dozens of other California law enforcement personnel who tried to help even though they were off-duty.

More than 200 Southern California police officers were attending the Oct. 1 event when a gunman opened fire and some were shot or otherwise hurt as they helped secure the area, perform CPR and get people to safety. Some have put in claims for compensation with their cities or counties and others intend to do so.

But because of unclear language in California's labor code, local jurisdictions are asking whether they are required or even allowed to compensate people who were hurt while performing police duties out of state on their own time, the Orange County Register reported Monday.

At issue is whether taxpayers must foot the bill for potentially long-term medical care and treatment of post-traumatic stress, not to mention early disability retirements.

The California labor code says public agencies are required to pay benefits to off-duty police officers hurt while protecting life, peace or property anywhere in California but the code doesn't mention out-of-state actions.

Orange County officials interpreted that lack as forbidding payment. On Monday, the county rejected workers' compensation claims from four sheriff's deputies who said they suffered physical and psychological injuries while doing police work during the attack.

"If the county believed the law was on the side of these applicants, these claims would not be rejected," Orange County counsel Leon Page said. "But there's no wiggle room, there's no discretion."

"There's no ill will here," Page said. "We just think the law is clear."

The deputies' union had a different interpretation.

"The Sheriff's Department has an expectation of its sworn members to take whatever actions are necessary to preserve life wherever they're at," said Tom Dominguez, president of the Association of Orange County Deputy Sheriffs. "If they deny the claims, then the message that they're sending to their peace officers is not to take action when it is certainly warranted."

State lawmakers should step in to extend benefits for out-of-state actions, county Supervisor Todd Spitzer said.

"These police officers went into their instinctive training mode. and I don't think they should be punished because they trusted their instincts," he said.

In the meantime, those whose claims are rejected have the option to sue. More than a half-dozen jurisdictions, including Los Angeles, Riverside and San Bernardino counties, might find themselves facing court battles with injured people whom, in other circumstances, they might honor for heroism.

Los Angeles County is considering whether to accept or reject claims by two sheriff's deputies who were shot at the festival.

Eleven San Bernardino County sheriff's deputies attended the festival and one, Sgt. Brad Powers, was shot in the leg. The deputies union is talking with the Sheriff's Department about treating that as an on-duty injury.

In the city of Bakersfield, 14 local officers attended the festival, including Aaron Mundhenke, who was shot in the hip.

The police union has advised members to seek legal advice if they are considering filing claims but the president, Officer Ramon Chavez, told the Register that he understands the city's predicament if officers seek paid time off in the aftermath of their Las Vegas experiences.

"There are 14 people, and if all these officers go out on stress, if they cover one, they'll probably have to cover everybody else," he said.




This is a very interesting debate, and I hope there will be State laws addressing this issue across the country, especially in today's climate where pointless mass shootings and motivated terror attacks could happen anywhere.

When off-duty police officers from one State sprang into action and were seriously harmed while protecting lives in a different State, do you think...

1) Should they be entitled to Worker's Compensation for the injuries sustained for their completely-voluntary heroics while vacationing, way outside their contracted jurisdiction?

2) Which municipality's tax-payers should have to foot the bill for those injuries, the State where the visiting Off-Duty police officers' valiant efforts took place, or the State where they're coming from?



Personally, I think there should be a nation-wide vote to determine whether the State where the incident occurs would take care of the First Responders from out of town who helped when a tragedy occurs. The States that agree would then codify it into laws so police officers everywhere would know that they will be taken care of if they voluntarily shed blood for the people that they're NOT contracted to protect.

On the other hand, if a State disagree and the majority of their voters choose to opt-out, visiting First Responders would knows ahead of time that they would be hang out to dry if they choose to help people there on their own volition while Off-Duty.
 
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How can you claim workers comp while being off duty?
 
Heroism should never be penalized. So as long as they are taken care of, I'm satisfied.
 
How can you claim workers comp while being off duty?

agreed. If I jumped into action, as someone who isn't a cop, there would be no workers comp for me. That said someone should start a charity to help them and I'd probably donate.
 

the problem with single payer health care is there is no incentive to improve. If you have cancer single payer says you will choose the cheapest way to treat it every time. Developing new techniques to cure and treat diseases is very expensive. Right now America is in the forefront of developing new ways to treat people. I don't want that to change and I think a single payer system will do that.
 
it's a catch 22. damn if you do and damn if you don't

"you are a coward! how come you didn't take action when you were off duty!"

"you are on your own buddy! you were off duty and we are not paying for your injuries"
 
the problem with single payer health care is there is no incentive to improve. If you have cancer single payer says you will choose the cheapest way to treat it every time. Developing new techniques to cure and treat diseases is very expensive. Right now America is in the forefront of developing new ways to treat people. I don't want that to change and I think a single payer system will do that.

Even if you were to eliminate the incentive issue, you still run up against the biggest problem, knowing where to allocate resources absent any of the market signals only decentralization can provide.

Sorry @VivaRevolution not only is that kind of program simply unaffordable, its also one of the worst ways to allocate a scarce resource... and HC is a scarce resource.
 
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it's a catch 22. damn if you do and damn if you don't

"you are a coward! how come you didn't take action when you were off duty!"

"you are on your own buddy! you were off duty and we are not paying for your injuries"

Their health insurance doesn't cover the medical costs or let them go on disability?
 
Their health insurance doesn't cover the medical costs or let them go on disability?
you get more when you receive an injury/disability while you are on duty.

one of the motor cops in my agency broke both of his legs while on duty (a vehicle made a left turn in front of him) and he medically retired with 70% of his pay.

I doubt he can even get that if he got into an accident off duty.
 
Even if you were to eliminate the incentive issue, you still run up against the biggest problem, knowing where to allocate resources absent any of the market signals only decentralization can provide.

Sorry @VivaRevolution not only is that kind of program simply unfordable, its also one of the worst ways to allocate a scarce resource... and HC is a scarce resource.

You would need to explain why we pay 17% GDP, compared to nations with UHC, spend 9-12% GDP.

I will. It isn't because UHC is so effective at allocating resources. It is because their is no free market in HC. HC like banking, is an industry built on accounting fraud, where no functioning market actually exists.

The choice isn't a functioning free market like we had in the 70's when we paid 10% GDP, or UHC.

The choice is extractionist theft built on fraud or UHC.
 
You would need to explain why we pay 17% GDP, compared to nations with UHC, spend 9-12% GDP.

I will. It isn't because UHC is so effective at allocating resources. It is because their is no free market in HC. HC like banking, is an industry built on accounting fraud, where no functioning market actually exists.

The choice isn't a functioning free market like we had in the 70's when we paid 10% GDP, or UHC.

The choice is extractionist theft built on fraud or UHC.

costs are with out a doubt out of control. A lot of these leads back to the price of college. Which is another huge issue. Also R&D is a huge cost too, probably out of control. Also the prescience of insurance raises costs too. There are SO MANY huge issues with health care that it's really hard to fix it. We need to address all these issues themselves and health care costs will improve.
 
You would need to explain why we pay 17% GDP, compared to nations with UHC, spend 9-12% GDP.

I will. It isn't because UHC is so effective at allocating resources. It is because their is no free market in HC. HC like banking, is an industry built on accounting fraud, where no functioning market actually exists.

The choice isn't a functioning free market like we had in the 70's when we paid 10% GDP, or UHC.

The choice is extractionist theft built on fraud or UHC.

Because we have an amount of compliance costs imposed on the HC industry that UHC countries wouldn't dare impose on themselves.

I might agree with you on the near term with your final conclusion. Then again, medium term I don't think we're go to be one country for much longer so those need not be the only options.
 
the problem with single payer health care is there is no incentive to improve. If you have cancer single payer says you will choose the cheapest way to treat it every time. Developing new techniques to cure and treat diseases is very expensive. Right now America is in the forefront of developing new ways to treat people. I don't want that to change and I think a single payer system will do that.

The problem with this idea, is that it rejects the reality that the rate of HC inflation for 30 years is on a trajectory to crash the US economy.

You point to cancer treatments, which in large part is researched at Universities, paid for by your tax dollars, not Phizer.

I dont think the average person has any idea that the greatest threat to the continued existence of this country, isn't global warming, or Muslims. It is HC spending.
 
costs are with out a doubt out of control. A lot of these leads back to the price of college. Which is another huge issue. Also R&D is a huge cost too, probably out of control. Also the prescience of insurance raises costs too. There are SO MANY huge issues with health care that it's really hard to fix it. We need to address all these issues themselves and health care costs will improve.

His conclusion at the end of his post, is pretty hard to refute from a pragmatic sense. The only direction we see government moving towards is growth, and for its own survival, necessarily so.
 
Because we have an amount of compliance costs imposed on the HC industry that UHC countries wouldn't dare impose on themselves.

I might agree with you on the near term with your final conclusion. Then again, medium term I don't think we're go to be one country for much longer so those need not be the only options.

Wow, that's an interesting prediction. What kind of catalyst would you imagine for that to occur?
 
To not completely derail this thread though, whichever the case for these LEO's I'm sure people will charitably pick up the bill if the state doesn't.

Everyone loves a hero.
 
costs are with out a doubt out of control. A lot of these leads back to the price of college. Which is another huge issue. Also R&D is a huge cost too, probably out of control. Also the prescience of insurance raises costs too. There are SO MANY huge issues with health care that it's really hard to fix it. We need to address all these issues themselves and health care costs will improve.

I don't think we could possibly know where the money is going, because their is no accounting integrity in HC.

It is like trying to audit the Pentagon. How do you audit a lie?
 
Wow, that's an interesting prediction. What kind of catalyst would you imagine for that to occur?

Well, who could ever predict the flash point? It's undeniable though that political discourse is becoming exceedingly impossible across aisles.

I don't think there's many people that don't at least feel the pervasive tension involved. It used to be something that you could talk about over a coffee break, now families are breaking up over the division politically.

Though, I've got to say, when you come to your conclusion about HC in that legitimately realistic sense... UHC may indeed be the better of the two options.
 
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