International Woman takes child from Saudi father and the US backs her.

[panamaican]

This is the standard comity tit-for-tat argument, but it doesn't work as well here because Saudi law on this issue already disregards other countries. We have a solution: the Hague Convention, which provides for bilateral recognition of custody rights and what violates them, and which Saudi Arabia has refused to sign.

To put it another way, the comity argument is that the US should not play it because it doesn't want SA to play tat. But SA has already adopted tat, so whats wrong with some tit?

You should represent the standard that you expect from others. Because you're not just communicating with SA but with other nations that are watching these things and drawing conclusions about you from them.

Not to make this about Trump but it was my argument against many of his foreign policy actions. He wasn't objectively wrong when it came to things like how other countries were allocating military spending or other issues. But he was wrong because his approach to the problem lowered our esteem and thus our ability to influence.

I see this through a similar lens.

 

[Fluffernutter]

Saudi Arabia doesn't get to unilaterally determine who we grant US citizenship to.

That's a very good point.

As an American, she just needs to fill out the paperwork for her daughter at the consular section at the embassy.

 

[Swing]

Ya but let's take that argument further. It would be better for any child in Saudi Arabia to be raised in the U.S. or at least any girl. We certainly are not going to condone kidnapping of random Saudi children to raise them as Americans. So applying our normative values to let the mother violate another countries laws does not seem right.

Before you know it the Saudis are going to come here and snatch our kids saying look better them come to our country than grow up wasting their youth on tinder hook ups and ending up 40 unhappy with their cat their only family.

Yes, but this isn't a random Saudi child; it's the child of an American citizen who is a citizen herself. So while we surely wouldn't be okay with this situation if the shoe was on the other foot, I don't see that consideration outweighing the need to look after our own citizens.

You might not think we have good cause to refuse to return this kid to her father, but we have demonstrably better grounds for it than we would to simply kidnap Saudi kids because they'd be better off in the US.

 

[Blayt7hh]

The father should have rights to his child. Screw Bethany. She seems like the entitled type of woman who doesn't want to face the consequences of her actions.

You dated a local. Married a local. Got knocked up by the local. Had the local's child. Seems a bit late for "buyer's remorse" when a cursory google search could have told what life might be like.

Why is the man more entitled to custody than her? And why in the world does it make you so angry?

 

[Lord Coke]

Why is the man more entitled to custody than her? And why in the world does it make you so angry?

The mother did have partial custody that she shared with the father in the country the child was born in. What the mother did is literally kidnapping. And as a country we are enabling it.

 

[Crom Cruach]

It's a shitty situation but there isn't a country in the world that would not back their own citizen over a foreign citizen in a custody battle.

Kidnapping by one parent of a mixed nationality marriage back to "their" home country is pretty common. Plenty of kids have gone into SA that way.

It got all the hot buttons that the War Room loves like Muslims and uppity women not knowing their place but absolutely nothing will be done about this. That kid is only going back to Saudi if the father does a reverse kidnap job. Good luck with that.

 

[Lord Coke]

It's a shitty situation but there isn't a country in the world that would not back their own citizen over a foreign citizen in a custody battle.

Kidnapping by one parent of a mixed nationality marriage back to "their" home country is pretty common. Plenty of kids have gone into SA that way.

It got all the hot buttons that the War Room loves like Muslims and uppity women not knowing their place but absolutely nothing will be done about this. That kid is only going back to Saudi if the father does a reverse kidnap job. Good luck with that.

This actually has a lot of parallels to the Elian Gonzalez case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elián_González

 

[aitkenmike]

I didn't say anything about "required". I said that it's good policy because not doing so opens us up to retaliatory legislation in those countries. International law comes from respecting those types of local outcomes, even when we don't have to. This would apply to marriages, divorces, custody agreements, etc.

Its dicey to just start disregarding those types of things because we don't like the original nation's other elements.

Agreed, but the reason the Hague Convention exists is that child kidnapping/removal/repatriation is such a contentious issue, and signing up to the convention implies respecting those principles. Those that haven't signed implicitly show a reluctance to doing that, so not repatriating to those countries I don't think risks wider reputational issues.

 

[panamaican]

Agreed, but the reason the Hague Convention exists is that child kidnapping/removal/repatriation is such a contentious issue, and signing up to the convention implies respecting those principles. Those that haven't signed implicitly show a reluctance to doing that, so not repatriating to those countries I don't think risks wider reputational issues.

I think it does. We signed something that says we respect those principles. But we're throwing the principles out the window here. Do we only respect the principle when someone else joins the Hague Convention? If that's the case then I would say that we don't really respect the principles, we respect the Hague Convention. If we respected the principles, we'd apply them regardless of whether the other nation does the same.

I don't think it's a stronger argument to say "I think something is wrong unless it involves that country then it's not 'wrong' anymore."

I think other countries look at that and draw conclusions.

 

[panamaican]

The mother did have partial custody that she shared with the father in the country the child was born in. What the mother did is literally kidnapping. And as a country we are enabling it.

I think it's the creation of new state law that bothers me the most. I could support us backing the woman in court, here and abroad but crafting new law targeted at her situation is one step further than I'm comfortable.

 

[TheRealHNIC]

depends. if the father isn't a jerk, then things tend to be gravy.

Thats completely not true lol.

but I see what you mean. I learned that the kid was a girl, & while I'm not happy with how she got here, I think it's better off for her to grow & become an American, at the end of the day.

Well i guess we'll have to see. I've soured pretty hard on American/Western culture the past several years. It's toxic and unhealthy in so many ways. Not that Im advocating for Saudi Arabia's culture but ours a pretty bad as well. I don't think its a given she is better off here.

 

[Ichibanner]

Why is the man more entitled to custody than her? And why in the world does it make you so angry?

I never said that I believe that the man is "more entitled". Saudi law states that children fall under the Paternal Guardianship of the Father.

Any father that has provided emotional and financial support deserves to have rights to their child up until they do something to break that trust. Same goes for mothers.

I'm not angry at anyone. It doesn't affect me. I simply think that Bethany is a clueless liberal who hopped around living the life of an entitled 20 something. "Yay me, I got to open a yoga studio in Saudi Arabia! I met this great guy, I'm converting to Islam! We're married and now having a child! I'm so tolerant and understanding of other cultures and this one is wonderful!".

Now she bears the consequences of her decisions and she wants the protection of the Western world that she left. Why not be a good Muslim, go back to Saudi, and put your faith in Allah and the laws of Islam? I'm not a fan of people such as she especially when they want Government intervention as a solution to the problem they created.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I never said that I believe that the man is "more entitled". Saudi law states that children fall under the Paternal Guardianship of the Father.

Any father that has provided emotional and financial support deserves to have rights to their child up until they do something to break that trust. Same goes for mothers.

I'm not angry at anyone. It doesn't affect me. I simply think that Bethany is a clueless liberal who hopped around living the life of an entitled 20 something. "Yay me, I got to open a yoga studio in Saudi Arabia! I met this great guy, I'm converting to Islam! We're married and now having a child! I'm so tolerant and understanding of other cultures and this one is wonderful!".

Now she bears the consequences of her decisions and she wants the protection of the Western world that she left. Why not be a good Muslim, go back to Saudi, and put your faith in Allah and the laws of Islam? I'm not a fan of people such as she especially when they want Government intervention as a solution to the problem they created.

She stated that she's non-Muslim. If she "converted" it was probably a front to make the marriage easier. Which, clearly, was a terrible idea since that leads to friction down the road once the honeymoon phase wears off.

 

[TryggeTryggvar]

You strike me as a fundamentalist yourself. Just not a religious one.

You could say i got a fundamentally healthy position on what religion translates to in real life.

Or do you care to dispute my point? Im guessing no, as most religious people are good at projecting, but bad at explaining.
Or if thats not to your liking, nor ability, you can flesh out why you find me some weird kind of fundamentalist

 

[TheRealHNIC]

You could say i got a fundamentally healthy position on what religion translates to in real life.

Or do you care to dispute my point? Im guessing no, as most religious people are good at projecting, but bad at explaining.
Or if thats not to your liking, nor ability, you can flesh out why you find me some weird kind of fundamentalist

Well the thing about non-religious fundamentalism is that no matter what evidence you see, your mind is brainwashed to filter everything that you disagree with into the hate section of your mind. Fundamentalists are mentally ill people, casualties of oppressive dogma, extensive lies, and toxic propaganda if you will. Should be mandatory mental health care for them.

 

[Ichibanner]

She stated that she's non-Muslim. If she "converted" it was probably a front to make the marriage easier. Which, clearly, was a terrible idea since that leads to friction down the road once the honeymoon phase wears off.

Interesting. Dailymail stated that she converted to Islam while living in Saudi, I hadn't read that she ditched Islam. She can do what she wants but how stupid is this woman if she couldn't see where all of this was headed under Saudi law?

I stand by my belief that she's an entitled Western liberal that found her decisions to be too inconvenient and now wants Western courts to rule in her favor. Reading statements from her mother reinforces that in my mind.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Interesting. Dailymail stated that she converted to Islam while living in Saudi, I hadn't read that she ditched Islam. She can do what she wants but how stupid is this woman if she couldn't see where all of this was headed under Saudi law?

I stand by my belief that she's an entitled Western liberal that found her decisions to be too inconvenient and now wants Western courts to rule in her favor. Reading statements from her mother reinforces that in my mind.

Oh I don't disagree with your assessment here necessarily, I'm just adding that its possible that she never even truly converted in a genuine sense which honestly reflects even more poorly on her.

You could say i got a fundamentally healthy position on what religion translates to in real life.

Or do you care to dispute my point? Im guessing no, as most religious people are good at projecting, but bad at explaining.
Or if thats not to your liking, nor ability, you can flesh out why you find me some weird kind of fundamentalist

I think the creepy part of your post is the mandatory mental healthcare part since if anything that's been a far more oppressive and powerful tool of brainwashing in the last 100 years. But at the same time I don't think you were being serious with that claim.

 

[Ichibanner]

Oh I don't disagree with your assessment here necessarily, I'm just adding that its possible that she never even truly converted in a genuine sense which honestly reflects even more poorly on her.

I think that you might have hit the nail on the head here if she's ditched the religion and "returned to her roots". I can't imagine that Bethany from Washington State was ready to give up getting tattoos, going to Burning Man, or posing for Instagram photos clad in yoga pants and a lycra half top in order to fully embrace Islam and Saudi culture.

 

[TryggeTryggvar]

Well the thing about non-religious fundamentalism is that no matter what evidence you see, your mind is brainwashed to filter everything that you disagree with into the hate section of your mind. Fundamentalists are mentally ill people, casualties of oppressive dogma, extensive lies, and toxic propaganda if you will. Should be mandatory mental health care for them.

If you are so triggered by me pointing out 2+2=4 just say so sherbro, you are either some form of weird religious apologist, or you should put down your holy book for a second and pick up something science related. I recomend one of the many studies on how fundamenltaism and mental health affect one another

Besides you fail to point out how my knowledge of fundamentalism makes me a fundamentalist, nor do you manage to make a point that fundamentalism is good for your mental health and/or worldview, and not some backwards dark ages mumbo jumbo. Typical sherdog argument, all snark and no substance

Oh I don't disagree with your assessment here necessarily, I'm just adding that its possible that she never even truly converted in a genuine sense which honestly reflects even more poorly on her.

I think the creepy part of your post is the mandatory mental healthcare part since if anything that's been a far more oppressive and powerful tool of brainwashing in the last 100 years. But at the same time I don't think you were being serious with that claim.

While i do not believe fundamentalists should be forcefully put in some weird homes, I do believe they should have a mandatory proffesional to talk to so as not to escalate to supporting isis or other similarly totalitarian religious organizations, or even be taken for a ride by a tele evangelist or other form of religious scammers. Then if they are deemed a danger to society we can talk about locking em up in the looney bin for some more in depth treatment.

I do want to point out, again, that i do not have a problem with religious people who practices their religion in a respectful manner wich puts social norms and laws above religion. This is after all quite easy to do as most of the major no-noes are based on religious morals in the first place. Also there are no laws that force you to consume alcohol, have sex before marriage etc.
Its the wife beating, children oppressing, society hating whackos who we need to keep an eye on. Even if you are both religious people i dont think you can really disagree on this last point. The list could go on and on about all the wicked shit that goes down in fundamentalist countries, sects and congregations, and imo it has no place in society in 2021.

 

[weed]

Thats completely not true lol.



Well i guess we'll have to see. I've soured pretty hard on American/Western culture the past several years. It's toxic and unhealthy in so many ways. Not that Im advocating for Saudi Arabia's culture but ours a pretty bad as well. I don't think its a given she is better off here.

how so? the majority of people I know have all had chill fathers, & are chill fathers themselves. I dunno man.

also, true, but I'm thinking opportunities. she'll have a hell of a lot more granted to her living life here, than in SA.