Wolves Are Back in california

[Farmer Br0wn]

LoL a balanced eco system in not beneficial.

I say kill you and any one that encroaches on my quality of life, you are nuisance to me and in my clearly superior opinion deserve to die for it.

A: We really don't NEED wolves. Humans are the Apex hunters. We can balance the ecosystem far better due to our ability to reason and make use of mathematics.

B: What you suggested is EXTREMELY Immoral. Humans are the only being of volitional consciousness. We have the ability to make choices and use reason. For you to murder another person requires you to choose to do so.

Animals are beings of involuntary instinct. They have no ability to expand, understand, or deny the knowledge they posses. Some animals can be trained to do cute tricks, but they have no ability to understand what they are doing and why. This is why you shoot a predator when it gets too close small children or livestock. Predators have no ability to deny their instincts, so they will kill your loved one or your property.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

No they're not. If dogs are loving and caring pets, wolves are loving and caring providers for their families.
Anthropomorphise all you want, but be consistent.



The day I can't get a steak and a carton of milk because wolves are threatening the world's supply of meat and milk is the day I will care about wolves munching on the occasional cow.



There are no benefits to most people's dogs.
Cows are meat.

I value the continued existence of a natural environment that is not overrun with people and technology. maybe you don't, but there are others who do, and there are plenty of benefits to apex predators in maintaining such environments.




Why wouldn't I?

I never said wolves threaten cows I said cows are more important than wolves.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

The existence of freely living wolves is more satisfying to me than some mutt's life on some random human's farm.

That "mutt" is someone's property. That person has every right to defend his/her property from an invasive animal on their homestead. Understand that you affinity for wolves is only a subjective opinion because you find wolves to be "beautiful" or "noble" or "majestic" or whatever phrasing you would use.

The farmer on the other hand has an objective claim to his/her property and the right to defend it.

I'd place more value on the life of a wolf than on that of a dog or cow.

That's simply a subjective opinion. The property owner is objectively harmed by the actions of an invasive species (in this instance, wolves), from having to clean up what's left of his/her dog and having to buy a new one, or the income lost from the wolves killing livestock.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

I never said wolves threaten cows I said cows are more important than wolves.

Cows as a species might be, since they are a food source for us, but an individual cow or two is not really more important than anything.
Since wolves are not likely to drive cows to extinction, I'd say that people worried about wolves eating their cows should maybe build better fences, which is just a good idea anyway.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

That's simply a subjective opinion. The property owner is objectively harmed by the actions of an invasive species (in this instance, wolves), from having to clean up what's left of his/her dog and having to buy a new one, or the income lost from the wolves killing livestock.

I got the impression that, until they were driven almost to extinction, wolves were indigenous to the area? Which would make the property owner the invasive species, from whose point of view your own subjective opinion is built on.

If they're not local, then I stand down from the discussion and concede.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

The true whining won't ensue until the first hunting tags are issued for wolves. I actually hope to hunt one some day.

If I recall correctly, I believe you can still hunt wolves in Alaska. It's on my list of animals to hunt when I finally go on my Alaskan hunting trip (Brown Bear, Grizzly Bear, Moose, Caribou, and a wolf).

There is no benefits to having wolves besides them looking cool.

Keep them in zoos and Yellowstone park. Kill any that encroach on farms and human habitats.

I agree, wolves are a "nice to have" not a "need to have". I also agree on killing any that encroach on farms and homesteads. A good friend of mine is a 3rd generation cattle rancher, I've helped him cull predators that are trying to sneak onto his property a few times. Unless you actually own livestock, you have no idea what a constant threat invasive predators can be.

 

[shinkyoku]

Cows as a species might be, since they are a food source for us, but an individual cow or two is not really more important than anything.
Since wolves are not likely to drive cows to extinction, I'd say that people worried about wolves eating their cows should maybe build better fences, which is just a good idea anyway.

Unfortunately, in region where wolves are plentiful (and they are not in any danger of extinction globally) they take livestock not here and there, but by the hundreds and thousands.

as for fences, that is a good idea -unless you are the poor sod who have to build them, pay for them and do the never ending manhours to maintain them. If it is even possible to put up effective fences (as effective as fences can be, it is almost impossible to build fences that are SECURE. The best you can hope for is resistant to wolves that are not motivated to get through) in the local geography.

 

[TSO]

Unfortunately, in region where wolves are plentiful (and they are not in any danger of extinction globally) they take livestock not here and there, but by the hundreds and thousands.

as for fences, that is a good idea -unless you are the poor sod who have to build them, pay for them and do the never ending manhours to maintain them. If it is even possible to put up effective fences (as effective as fences can be, it is almost impossible to build fences that are SECURE. The best you can hope for is resistant to wolves that are not motivated to get through) in the local geography.

I've had coyote's jump my 6 foot fence many times. A wolf could probably get over an 8 footer just as easy.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

I got the impression that, until they were driven almost to extinction, wolves were indigenous to the area? Which would make the property owner the invasive species, from whose point of view your own subjective opinion is built on.

If they're not local, then I stand down from the discussion and concede.

Sorry, animals have no capacity to understand morality or the rights of property. Peoples claims come first because they can understand and rationalize all of the benefits, rewards, and consequences of property ownership and stewardship.

I think you also need to read up on what makes a subjective opinion. Your first sentence was a question. Your second sentence was split into two parts, the first part was a subjective statement based upon preference for an entity that recognizes no property rights (wolves), then the second part of the sentence tries to imply that my opinion is somehow subjective based upon nothing I've said.

 

[shinkyoku]

I've had coyote's jump my 6 foot fence many times. A wolf could probably get over an 8 footer just as easy.

yes they can, and they can dig under, and swim around, and they are not that bothered by electric wires when motivated by a pray animal on the other side.

 

[TSO]

yes they can, and they can dig under, and swim around, and they are not that bothered by electric wires when motivated by a pray animal on the other side.

They sure are bothered by shotguns and spotlights though.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

Sorry, animals have no capacity to understand morality or the rights of property. Peoples claims come first because they can understand and rationalize all of the benefits, rewards, and consequences of property ownership and stewardship.

I didn't say that animals have the capacity to understand morality or rights of property. We're not wolves, and we're the ones having the conversation, so I'm not sure why you think this is relevant, other than to establish people as the sole bearers of responsibility for the outcome of any encounter between the two... which is also not something I am disputing.

I think you also need to read up on what makes a subjective opinion.

I don't.

Your first sentence was a question.

Very astute.
I'm reeling.

Your second sentence was split into two parts, the first part was a subjective statement

The first part was "Which would make the property owner the invasive species". Not subjective at all. Maybe you need to look up what "invasive species" means.

based upon preference for an entity that recognizes no property rights (wolves),

Why is this important to you? The fact that wolves recognise no property rights. I assume that it is important to you, since you mention it as if it's not something we're aware of.

then the second part of the sentence tries to imply that my opinion is somehow subjective based upon nothing I've said.

Your opinion, whatever it is, is subjective. Opinions tend to be. I was highlighting the ridiculousness of telling me that my opinion is subjective, because... duh.

Since your friend is a rancher, your opinion is based on experiences that favour the rancher.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

Unfortunately, in region where wolves are plentiful (and they are not in any danger of extinction globally) they take livestock not here and there, but by the hundreds and thousands.

as for fences, that is a good idea -unless you are the poor sod who have to build them, pay for them and do the never ending manhours to maintain them. If it is even possible to put up effective fences (as effective as fences can be, it is almost impossible to build fences that are SECURE. The best you can hope for is resistant to wolves that are not motivated to get through) in the local geography.

Fair enough.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Unfortunately the spoiler function means the wolf-friends will skip over the pictures. They tend to do that when they dont like facts. Its easier to pretend that wolves are cuddly and harmless that way.
Seeing the unpleasantness that wolves actually causes, perhaps prevents them from ridiculing those who are actually affected by it, calling them rednecks and so on.

Not me.

Dogs are loving and caring pets while cows provide milk and meat.

There is no benefits to having wolves besides them looking cool.

Keep them in zoos and Yellowstone park. Kill any that encroach on farms and human habitats.

No one with a brain pretends that wolves are cuddly animals but they serve an important role in the ecosystem
[YT]ysa5OBhXz-Q[/YT]
So yes, there are benefits to having wolves when it comes to ecology.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

No one with a brain pretends that wolves are cuddly animals but they serve an important role in the ecosystem

So yes, there are benefits to having wolves when it comes to ecology.

Just curious, what function in the ecosystem do wolves preform that humans are unable to preform?

 

[PrinceOfPain]

Just curious, what function in the ecosystem do wolves preform that humans are unable to preform?

Fantastic and relevant question, because we know every impact that every species has on every ecosystem, and by extension, how we can fill the roles played by those species in those ecosystems.

Yet, despite this seemingly infinite knowledge, we're too stupid to figure out how to control those species without exterminating them.

This question is one of those things you say that make people start to wonder why they're responding to you.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

Your opinion, whatever it is, is subjective.

No, not even kind of close.

You stated that you prefer the life of the wolf over that of the dog or cow (hint: that's a subjective opinion). I stated that the dog and cow are both property (hint: that's an objective fact). Then I stated that wolves and other predators are often invasive to the property of the farmer/rancher. You then somehow derived the idea that this statement of fact was in some way subjective because a wolf MAY have walked on that property a long time ago. You implied claim that the wolf has some sort of claim to a stretch of land is also a subjective opinion.

I suggest reading up on Aristotle and his "A is A" law of identity. It will help you a lot in the future when you decide to have these debates.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

Fantastic and relevant question, because we know every impact that every species has on every ecosystem, and by extension, how we can fill the roles played by those species in those ecosystems.

Yet, despite this seemingly infinite knowledge, we're too stupid to figure out how to control those species without exterminating them.

This question is one of those things you say that make people start to wonder why they're responding to you.

So, can you name a single function in the ecosystem that a wolf can preform that a human simply can't?

Yes or No?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Just curious, what function in the ecosystem do wolves preform that humans are unable to preform?

I'm not an ecologist so I really couldn't tell you exactly but its important to consider the fact that one apex predators is not necessarily the same as the other. Hunting habits and prey selection are going to differ and that could have an important impact on the behavioral changes on the prey animal and other predators, not to mention wolves could compliment other niches in a way humans can't.

For instance, alligators in the everglades create little caves in banks that serve as important habitats for other species. Something like a Burmese python might not fulfill that role despite occupying a similar niche as a large apex reptilian predator.

In the case of wolves and humans I'd imagine there are similar difference. I'm not a hunter so correct me if I'm wrong but I imagine most hunters take the entire body to process it later. Compare that with the gruesome pictures posted earlier ITT where the wolves ate most of the body but left some behind. That could be important food for scavengers or serve as important nutrients for certain plants and fungi. And as you mentioned earlier you're only going to hunt specific animals, likely a combination of your personal preference and legal restrictions. I would imagine that wolf has a much larger selection of prey animals

Ecosystems are like puzzle pieces. Each piece fits exactly in its place and trying to switch it with a similar but still different piece may force the rest of the puzzle to change to adapt that one change.

Don't get me wrong here, I think when looking at this sort of thing we should have farmers and other people who live near wolves in mind and we should look for a solution that looks to accommodate both.

 

[bref]

2. You're complaining about wolves killing livestock and dogs. Not sure about anyone else here, but I'd place more value on the life of a wolf than on that of a dog or cow.

If a wolf is attacking a farmer's livestock, he has every right to kill that wolf.