With all the free content now,how good could untrained guys get just with instructionals?

[nefti]

More or less 15 years ago I talked with a guy who used to live and train in Brazil and he told me the story of how one time a group of guys from a small European country came to train where he trained (Carlsons Gracie Academy), and they had a really good level, at that time it was comparable to a Brown Belt.

When they were asked who was his trainer, they told them that they used instructional videos, studied them and trained and rolled with eachother.

Also, Pat Miletich did the same…put a Gracie VHS tape a mat in front of the TV and drilled the technique until he grasped the basics of it. Bas Rutten did the same also

Patt mikitech in highschool was in a wreslting ream with mark kerr. He also wrestled in juco in iowa. Not your avg guy.

I get it, its easy to bring up supposed "some guys from a mysterious land in europe saw a tape and became brown belts" . Most likey they had some kind of grappling base (most likey judo) and went to seminars around Europe. Maybe they were brown belts who knows. Even if they were they are a miniscule portion of the population.

Your avg guy probably needs 4~6 years of organized classes. Be about high blue/low purple to advance on his own correctly. I saw self traind guys they advanced (as beginners) much slower than they would have at a school.

So now we have to add things like "join open mats", maybe take a private, have some advanced guys train with them once in a while, have a guy maybe show him stuff every once a while. Ect ect

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

We all like to pretend that martials arts are some magical thing that you can only learn from a master, when in reality most of those masters where probably a guy who trained alot.

We have patent laws because people can reverse engineer pharmaceuticals but you will try to convince me that i can't get good at grappling from watching a dvd and trying it on my buddies.

You are very correct about patent laws about people reverse engineering pharmaceuticals
If you watch DVD/online instructionals and try it on your buddies, you can get very good, if you already have a competent level foundation. If you are already high level, you can improve a lot this way. But the vast majority of people, maybe like 95% will not develop a competent foundation by watching a dvd and trying it on their buddies

Just like 95% (or more) of the population will not be able to reverse engineer pharmaceuticals solely on self taught methods without a foundation

 

[nefti]

We have patent laws because people can reverse engineer pharmaceuticals but you will try to convince me that i can't get good at grappling from watching a dvd and trying it on my buddies.

I completely forgot about this part. Jesus "people" cant just pick up a chem set and reverse engineer pharmaceuticals. Wtf are you talking about? Patent laws are there so other pharmaceutical firms cant reverse engineering drugs. Not some random guy who found a highachool chem book and ordered a chemistry set on Amazon.

 

[thugpoet]

I completely forgot about this part. Jesus "people" cant just pick up a chem set and reverse engineer pharmaceuticals. Wtf are you talking about? Patent laws are there so other pharmaceutical firms cant reverse engineering drugs. Not some random guy who found a highachool chem book and ordered a chemistry set on Amazon.

My point is that if a complex process as drug making can be reverse engineered than learning how to arm bar your brother from a YouTube video isn't that far fetched

 

[Kforcer]

My point is that if a complex process as drug making can be reverse engineered than learning how to arm bar your brother from a YouTube video isn't that far fetched

I think so much of it depends on the person and their ability to assimilate information and their desire to learn and improve. Also, of course, what they did or didn't do prior to their pursuit of submission expertise.

 

[nefti]

My point is that if a complex process as drug making can be reverse engineered than learning how to arm bar your brother from a YouTube video isn't that far fetched

By scientists especially chemists thats what yiu are missing. You are saying what im sayjng, thet a person who has a grappling foundation can improve.

A noob? Will be craplling

 

[TheMaster]

I think so much of it depends on the person and their ability to assimilate information and their desire to learn and improve. Also, of course, what they did or didn't do prior to their pursuit of submission expertise.

People pretend like there is no mystique in grappling and earning your belts and stripes.
Nowadays you got expert detail explained moves and positions from multiple angles and the same for the defences.
With a bit of experimentation two noobs who were serious could work it out and reach a surprisingly competent level I think.

 

[Kforcer]

People pretend like there is no mystique in grappling and earning your belts and stripes.
Nowadays you got expert detail explained moves and positions from multiple angles and the same for the defences.
With a bit of experimentation two noobs who were serious could work it out and reach a surprisingly competent level I think.

There's a lot of great older instructionals, as well though, in my opinion. For example, John Smith's instructional material is just amazing. Not only his stuff about the low-single, but his stuff about stances, how to tie-up, etc.

Ken Shamrock's book was great and I lifted some stuff that I made a lot of use of directly from his text. Marcelo Garcia's X-Guard book was also excellent (it even gave a pathway for advancement, from butterfly to x-guard), as was Royler Gracie's no-gi book, Submission Grappling. Andre Galvao's book on drilling is another great one.

Masakazu Imanari's instructional DVD totally changed my game and I know I wasn't the only one. In fact, I remember a tournament back in 2007 or something, every match I won was with an Imanari roll or a variation, and a lighter weight guy was like, "Imanari DVD, huh...?" In fact, Imanari has almost never done the now-famous variation that he demonstrates in his DVD, but it is that entry that is famous and that so many people, myself included, have gotten mileage out of. The fact is that, even with the language barrier, Imanari did an amazing job laying out the mechanics of the move. The results speak for themselves--it is one of the best instructional DVD's of all-time.

So I wouldn't say it is just the contemporary stuff that is worthwhile and leaps and bounds above the older stuff. I can think of a ton of great older stuff. Another one that just came to mind that is absolutely amazing is Baret Yoshida. Great details, great explanations, great insights and his book an DVD go together in a supplemental fashion that is also very helpful.

 

[thugpoet]

By scientists especially chemists thats what yiu are missing. You are saying what im sayjng, thet a person who has a grappling foundation can improve.

A noob? Will be craplling

You do realize most noobs are probably smarter than you... Again the ability to move isn't particularly hard. Might take some time depending on your past but i refuse to believe one can't learn to grapple without a in person coach especially when you are factor in pretty much everything that was ever created was by someone just doing stuff.

 

[TheMaster]

There's a lot of great older instructionals, as well though, in my opinion. For example, John Smith's instructional material is just amazing. Not only his stuff about the low-single, but his stuff about stances, how to tie-up, etc.

Ken Shamrock's book was great and I lifted some stuff that I made a lot of use of directly from his text. Marcelo Garcia's X-Guard book was also excellent (it even gave a pathway for advancement, from butterfly to x-guard), as was Royler Gracie's no-gi book, Submission Grappling. Andre Galvao's book on drilling is another great one.

Masakazu Imanari's instructional DVD totally changed my game and I know I wasn't the only one. In fact, I remember a tournament back in 2007 or something, every match I won was with an Imanari roll or a variation, and a lighter weight guy was like, "Imanari DVD, huh...?" In fact, Imanari has almost never done the now-famous variation that he demonstrates in his DVD, but it is that entry that is famous and that so many people, myself included, have gotten mileage out of. The fact is that, even with the language barrier, Imanari did an amazing job laying out the mechanics of the move. The results speak for themselves--it is one of the best instructional DVD's of all-time.

So I wouldn't say it is just the contemporary stuff that is worthwhile and leaps and bounds above the older stuff. I can think of a ton of great older stuff. Another one that just came to mind that is absolutely amazing is Baret Yoshida. Great details, great explanations, great insights and his book an DVD go together in a supplemental fashion that is also very helpful.

Thats great to hear the Lions Den book reference . This stuff was pioneering back in the day and it was like gold to get some of these expert and combat tested info when it was much less available.

It's good you highlight some of the older foundational material as well as I agree it shouldn't be overlooked, there is goodstuff posted online by Billy Robinson that is great also for example.
People at the time could never have dreamed of the resources we have now.

I think people overlook what really a standard class structure gives anyway. The instructor will show you a move or position, sometimes just once and sometimes you may not see it clearly. Of course depending on the size of the class you then can get him to check your position .
But this aspect having the video is clearly an advantage and better. You could just as easily play a video in the class for this part then let the instructor correct.

The next part is having good training partners. Again this varies and in a big school not everyone may be high level or there may be girls there etc so your learning is limited.
If you had an athletic strong noob to train with and he was following the correct defence as best he could, after a few months consistent practice neither of you should be 'noobs' anymore.

Add in the going to an open mat say every 3 to 6 months to have reference point then progress could be good. If you worked on your cadio and strength training as well you will be approching what's needed to be succesful.

People underestimate the a large part of progress is just being habitual about training and having a culture of learning. A class or community gives you that bit and alot of the other attributes can be developed outside the class setting if you are serious and have others to roll with who are likewise.

 

[TheMaster]

I visited a Gracie Garage once, I thought the level was decent. For sure they can defend themselves against someone who is not initiated. I compared the level to a newly opened academy with blue belts being the average level of experience.

Which is impressive enough.
Seems like the garage format never caught on too much though.

 

[SHAOLINMONK420]

The amount and quality of material, even on free YT channels is vast now.
We all know if u already train it can level you up,or of you used to train grappling frequently it can do the same.

But what about some guys who never attended a legit academy or school but just rolled following instructionals?
How good could they really get?

you can find outdated out of print instructionals from sakuraba nog belfort instructionals on youtube etc. and if that isnt enough go to the library and get a bunch of mma and jiu jitsu books and dvds on hold for you.

 

[nefti]

You do realize most noobs are probably smarter than you... Again the ability to move isn't particularly hard. Might take some time depending on your past but i refuse to believe one can't learn to grapple without a in person coach especially when you are factor in pretty much everything that was ever created was by someone just doing stuff.

Ofcourse you are oje of those who say "look at Einstein" or some genious thats an outlier. Ingot news for you, 99.9999% of the people who say stuff like you are nor talented/nor are they outliers in talent. They just turn into crapplers.

 

[Ishaq]

Lets say some guys rolling in a garage all with no experience.
Maybe attending and open mat once in a long while but having no formal real life teacher or being a part of any academy.

They will reach a couple stripe white belt but there will be no teacher with sound technique to correct all their bad habits.

 

[thugpoet]

Ofcourse you are oje of those who say "look at Einstein" or some genious thats an outlier. Ingot news for you, 99.9999% of the people who say stuff like you are nor talented/nor are they outliers in talent. They just turn into crapplers.

Ingot news for you too...

Someone who had to create martial arts. There had to be someone who first created jujutsu. Why could those guys figure out something with no instruction at all but some how we can't with all the modern aids at our fingertips? Don't let the master myth fool you

 

[nefti]

Ingot news for you too...

Someone who had to create martial arts. There had to be someone who first created jujutsu. Why could those guys figure out something with no instruction at all but some how we can't with all the modern aids at our fingertips? Don't let the master myth fool you

You are not them. 99.99999% of the world arent them.

 

[nefti]

I mean who needed newton? You could have come up with calculus by yourself.

 

[thugpoet]

You are not them. 99.99999% of the world arent them.

I mean that's a great argument you have there that thesis will win you an award.

I maintain that yes having a in person coach is the best way to learn, however beating up a partner and learning from a video isn't the worse way to learn . Can you be a word champ? Probably not can you beat up most people after a while? Yea probably.

 

[thugpoet]

I mean who needed newton? You could have come up with calculus by yourself.

You guys must be the same person all the toilet humor and lack of critical thinking skills are basically the same I won't respond any further thank you

 

[Os3y3ris]

I mean that's a great argument you have there that thesis will win you an award.

I maintain that yes having a in person coach is the best way to learn, however beating up a partner and learning from a video isn't the worse way to learn . Can you be a word champ? Probably not can you beat up most people after a while? Yea probably.

Probably not. I tried that for years and sucked. Then I got proper training and started winning. You can make it to like 1 stripe white with you and your buddies.