WingChun Vs Boxing or the "Actual Practioner" ? - Discussion Thread

[Sano]

I wont post anymore in this thread or similar its pointless to discuss things .......... just pointless

Please let this be true.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Please let this be true.

I know everyone like to hate on "wing chun" but TS does have a point it is just no one has used it as a functional system in a long time.

If you look at all the wing chun stuff and what they are practicing it has been used to tremendous success in boxing by Roberto Duran. He is probably the best wing chun guy that ever lived except he was never taught wing chun. He's widely regarded as the best lightweight boxer of all time.

just see for yourself.


It can work but it won't be wing chun anymore than Wonderboy's movement looks like Karate katas.

 

[FighterTwister]

Well I will take the bait one more time since you are more conversational now.

First with any fighting system you need "COURAGE" to go in and perform that is part of the secret believe what you wan't when I say all fighting systems I mean ALL.

Second to this is "CALMNESS" to control yourself in the moment if you become fearful it won't work, you stiffen up and overly worried about getting hurt and you lose focus and perform badly. That is exactly the case in the above linked Wing Chun vs MMA video and many similar online.

If you have mastered your fighting system and you have undergone extensive training and have truly undergone body conditioning training methods, you have then the physical ability but the mental is allot harder, much-much harder.

Gosh even Mike Tyson talks about fear and how he controlled it, its HUMAN!

Some people are just better at instructing / teaching, not actual fighting, maybe a well performed demonstration at best!

That is why Ip Man got his reputation, he was both fighter and teacher, and why so many now don't go out and express Wing Chun they see the speed and aggression and panic.

Sad, because it just unveil's they were not ready, not prepared enough or unwilling or they just don't have it in them to make that choice to go in and do it!

Again, I will repeat in this thread Wing Chun does not fall or translate well in sparring its very aggressive in reality to use it under a Rule Set with gloves, it would just look like Muay Thai or Kickboxing its like saying to an Akido Master come lets spar with our swords in a ring, its just stupid to ask.

Same for some other Martial Arts like Filopino or even back to Kung Fu arts like San Soo they are to aggressive and don't fit a RULE SET!

Using these systems that do not fit a RULE SET in a RULE SET creates its own mental conflict as to how do I do what I need to do without hurting the other guy......... so bang guess what happens a Mental Freeze and you look like a goose............. thats the truth!

Thats what takes place in those Wing Chun challenge matches under a Rule Set with heaps of people watching and cameras, damn I would to its intimidating.

Application is different just like MMA vs Boxing two different applications and RULES SETS............ this was proven with Conor vs Floyd

You got to know the differences here and understand the dilemma NOT just knock a fighting system, its people that confuse everything its a people thing based on human emotion...........FEAR!

Some videos on COURAGE and CALMNESS............

I cont be bothered anymore each to his own have fun don't break the law or hurt anyone else have fun no matter what it is that you do!

Focus on good fitness and health!

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Well I will take the bait one more time since you are more conversational now.

First with any fighting system you need "COURAGE" to go in and perform that is part of the secret believe what you wan't when I say all fighting systems I mean ALL.

Second to this is CALMNESS to control yourself in the moment if you become fearful it won't work, you stiffen up and overly worried about getting hurt and you lose focus and perform badly. That is exactly the case in the above linked Wing Chun vs MMA video and many similar.

If you have mastered your fighting system and you have undergone extensive training and have truly conditioned your body, you have then the physical ability the mental is allot harder much much harder, gosh even Mike Tyson talks about fear and how he controlled it, its HUMAN!

Some people are just better at instructing / teaching not fighting.

That is why Ip Man got his reputation, he was both, and why so many now don't go out and express Wing Chun they see the speed and aggression and panic, sad because it just unveil they were not ready, not prepared or unwilling or they just don't have it them to make that choice to go!

Again I will repeat in this thread Wing Chun does not fall or translate well in sparring its very aggressive in reality to use it under a Rule Set with gloves would just look like Muay Thai or Kickboxing its like saying to an Akido Master come lets spar with our swords in a ring, its just stupid to ask.

Same for some other Martial Arts like Filopino or even back to Kung Fu arts like San Soo they are to aggressive and don't fit a RULE SET!

Using these systems that do not fit a RULE SET in a RULE SET creates its own mental conflict as to how do I do what I need to do without hurting the other guy......... so bang guess what happens a Mental Freeze and you look like a goose............. thats the truth!

Application is different just like MMA vs Boxing two different applications and RULES SETS............ this was proven with Conor vs Floyd

You got to the differences here and understand the dilemma NOT just knock a fighting system, its people that confuse everything.

Some videos on COURAGE and CALMNESS............









I cont be bothered anymore each to his own have fun don't break the law or hurt anyone else have fun no matter what it is that you do!

Focus on good fitness and health!

You are wrong dude you have to spar there is no way around it.

I looked into wing chun and I keep hearing about this, "its to dangerous to spar" blah blah and they are wrong.

I have been in situations that kung fu guys surprised attacked me with the intent to maim and blind me and because I had sparring training years earlier I instinctively reacted and before I could even think was completely dominating them. They fought me tooth and nail, literally, tried to gouge my eyes out, tried to rip my throat out and went for the nuts shot, pulled my hair, etc. They left me no choice but to choke them unconscious. It was not even competitive. It was pathetic.

You can leave the dirty shit out of sparring but you have to spar their is no way around it. If you don't spar it won't work and you will have removed the feedback loop that is required to make the drills translate into living functioning movements.

Show me a kung fu guy that has never sparred before and Ill show you a guys whos ass I can kick.

It is as simple as that.

 

[FighterTwister]

Sparring usually in boxing is to hurt, sparring traditional martial arts is to kill, it just does not work in sparring, it would just look like kickboxing with gloves and headgear etc.

Yes I used to spar with friends in my younger days myself gloves and head gear but thats like under a RULE SET no this not that situation.

Also to add on the above points added in thread to my reply above this video of Bas Rutten explaining fear so on



Point is again all fighting systems work again its a people thing FEAR - STAYING CALM - IN CONTROL - SITUATION AWARENESS............................

Anyway guys lets just end it here, again each to their own.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Sparring usually in boxing is to hurt, sparring traditional martial arts is to kill, it just does not work in sparring, it would just look like kickboxing with gloves and headgear etc.

Yes I used to spar with friends in my younger days myself gloves and head gear but thats like under a RULE SET no this not that situation.

Also to add on the above points added in thread to my reply above this video of Bas Rutten explaining fear so on



Point is again all fighting systems work again its a people thing FEAR - STAYING CALM - IN CONTROL - SITUATION AWARENESS............................

Anyway guys lets just end it here, again each to their own.

Yeah, and I'm telling you I have had TMA guys attempt to kill me and even been in multiple attacker situations because TMA guys are dirty fighters without honor and fight like bitches and I completely owned them.

What TMA guys train is not informed by sparring and typically hasn't been for several generations so by the time they are learning stuff it does not resemble the original form that used to work once upon a time. It would have to be rediscovered through pressure testing with varying degrees of resistance making adjustments along the way. Then pressure tested against existing styles that work and adapted and modified. It is a process but it is the only way.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

THIS SO MUCH THIS!


Look, these people were really lucky it was me because in the condition I was in if I had the kill or be killed mentality they would be maimed or worst.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Look, I have a appreciation for TMA and I actually think a lot of stuff in TMA is going to be integrated into MMA in like 30 years.

What bothers me is that many people involved in TMA are obsessed with this situation that can not be sparred for that is life or death. So when they finally decide they need to bust out martial arts it is with the intention to seriously injure someone and ultimately they are not prepared for that whatsoever. It is extremely dangerous to the TMA guys more than anyone. It is dangerous to anyone that is interested in TMA and starts drinking the koolaide.

What TMA contains is a library of movement patterns.
Their is a bounty of wealth in the movements themselves.

 

[rmongler]

Sparring usually in boxing is to hurt, sparring traditional martial arts is to kill, it just does not work in sparring, it would just look like kickboxing with gloves and headgear etc.

Less deadly techniques are more deadly than deadly techniques because you can actually practice them.

 

[Hotora86]

Less deadly techniques are more deadly than deadly techniques because you can actually practice them.

...aka the Kano paradox.

 

[FighterTwister]

...aka the Kano paradox.

WHAT IS KANO PARADOX - https://shinaido.wordpress.com/2014/08/09/kano-paradox-art-vs-sport/

The difference between ............... "SPORT and MILITARY .... MARTIAL ARTS"!

That's the way I like to express it but some stubbornly still won't except it..................... I blame the MMA hype train ruining the historical understanding of Martial Arts or TMA's as a much respected art from afar!

But good point on the KANO PARADOX conundrum!

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Adam Chan looks like he could legitimately apply the eye pokes in certain situations.

Here is the thing though. He is escalating the situation to maiming and a potential life or death situation should he attempt to do so.

Once you get to that level of escalation it is as if you pulled a knife on someone and used it except not nearly as effective and almost always completely ineffective in the case of nearly all people that prescribe to these methods.

The real issue is teaching people to escalate things to the level of maiming and life or death in the first place! That is a horrible method of self defense!

If it is LARPing it's one thing but all the stuff on preparing oneself mentally to use it in real life on someone is like preparing someone mentally to use a gun on others, which is in my opinion wrong, and beyond that they then find out the gun is made out of cardboard. They are then at the mercy of the other person after raising the stakes to maiming!

 

[RightToBareKnuckles]

Yes, generally this is the case!

TMA's are more respected and appreciated from afar for what they once were. We are now living in 2019 we don't commit to "Fight Challenges" signing Death Waivers, they are the ancient barbaric days. In the first video Adam makes a vague point to this and for whats its worth it will always come down to a practitioner...its about..."Sharpening Your Sword"...... so to speak. But TMA's don't translate into sparring it would just look like Kickboxing or sport orientated, its just not applied that way.

"Fighting".......... is a mentality, as well as the ability or skill!

A fighter once to hurt the other, a sense of achievement!

The applications differ though, how would I do a wrist lock if you are wearing Boxing gloves, its all apples and oranges............ in the hope to clear up the what is TMA.

TMA's as you said and I repeat are more of a hobby to enjoy, like for many like myself its not about fighting but to enjoy a hobby that we love and appreciate despite the clowns who like trolling as if they are going to achieve anything but "JAIL - TIME" LoL and in this place just adding more to the ignore list !

When I was younger we would visit the Boxing Gyms and go a couple rounds all in good fun though it was not to go all out for a K.O. or Kickbox the living daylight out of my friends or acquaintances it was to learn and spar lightly.

Long for good intellectual discussions that are great for supporting TMA's and nutting out any techniques or systems that people have enjoyed or like. I hope to see more of that by some members, rather than the constant knocking of TMA's.

i wish MMA was bare knuckle with no wrist wraps or anything, then we might see more wrist locks being used. if not for a submission, at least as a way to distract or transition to some other technique

 

[rmongler]

Best wing-chun fighter to walk the good green earth.




You can see how his example has influenced pretty much every other all time great wing-chun fighters who came after him.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Most wing chun practices are not going to work in a real fight and will only work in self defense situations if they are not really that serious in the first place.

That said their is nothing wrong with wing chun as a game to play with your friends with a LARPing component.

There are even elements in wing chun that can be brought out of it to actually work IF pressure tested and mixed with existing pressure tested martial arts/ combat sports.

It is dangerous to promote them as functioning martial systems against a resisting opponent because it won't work.

It does look fun to play around with though in my opinion.

 

[shincheckin]

any style is capable of beating any style, but..........generally speaking, boxing beats wing chun.

 

[Replay19]

I do JKD and I been able to apply the trapping hands many times in sparring. This goes for my own classmates and other fighters like MMA guys, boxers, and even some thai fighters. The MMA guys will attempt a takedown if you are slapping them around in trapping range, and muay thai guys generally love to clinch, elbow and knee. Through my experience, I can bridge the gap very quickly and do a pak da entry, I usually land a hit when I do a quick pak da. Sometimes I even stopped the guy's punch while doing the traditional "block and hit at the same time" and at that moment you don't even realize you did it until you see yourself on video lol.

Through my experience and mistakes, it's all about jumping straight into the danger and establishing your technique first. However you must be fast, like a gunslinger, like someone who's robbing the bank, you get in quick and steal the money and gtfo quick. If you stay too long and the opponent is in the clinching / takedown arts you will need to learn when the best time to disengage is. As a result I got taken down and clinched many times for hanging out too long in front of my opponent at that range, but in exchange I found myself doing some trapping hands on them as well.

In a general sense though, boxing for sure has it's advantages against Wing Chun. In a street setting, the Wing Chun guy has way more options available, and he may be lucky through proper timing and skill. However, a street boxer still has bare knuckles so it's not like Wing Chun is guaranteed a win, just a possibility but not impossible.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Yes, I have the same feeling about the clinch rule. For those not familiar, there is a rule in Sanda that clinches are only allowed to last 5 seconds, after which fighters are separated unless a takedown happens beforehand.

I also have an interesting story about this. So through my friend I was able to meet some of the founders of Sanda here in Beijing. One is a Bagua practitioner and one of the people that the Chinese military gathered together in the 80's along with practitioners of all the various traditional Chinese martial art styles (Tongbei, Qiquan, Shuaijiao, etc.) to develop a more practical form of martial arts, which became Sanda. He told me that when all these practitioners of different styles gathered together, they naturally wanted to compete against each other to see which style was best. But what they discovered, and I guess what we also discovered with MMA, was that Shuaijiao (Chinese wrestling, with principles similar to freestyle wrestling and Judo) trumped everything else, and to such a degree that no one else could even use any of their techniques. And that's why they came up with the 5 second rule, just to give non-wrestlers a chance to do anything at all!

​

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Wing Chun is very specific, only to be used in certain situations

check out Roberto Duran he is considered the best infighter ever.

He uses a lot of the wing chun principles like sticking and trapping but he uses powerful punches, head movement and good footwork.

With regular sparing wing chun would end up looking something like this.

Best wing-chun fighter to walk the good green earth.

Put on gloves and its no longer WC.
I don't understand why the fact that gloves make over 80 percent of the WC techniques useless is never emphasized enough (and Adam seem to just leave it out). The other aspects are true, but this is just as important, if not more. The majority of the counters, trappings, breakage and even attacks (WC usually only strike when an opponent's hands are out of the way) in WC follows from wrist grabs, which is almost impossible to do with any form of gloves, even MMA ones. The padding makes it easy for the opponent to create space and wriggle their hands out of a solid wrist grip and its impossible to grab an incoming fist as the glove will just help the opponent slide out. The entirety of the WC set up and form execution is literally nullified by the presence of gloves, and it just becomes WC punches VS boxing punches and WC was never meant to be fought that way. You are essentially using a handicapped art vs another art meant to be fought under such ruleset and conditions.

Also, I don't know why the kicks aren't mentioned at all. One of the first thing any half decent level WC guy will do when another puncher extends themselves and lose balance (which boxing always do since its light on the bottom) is to kick them below the waist line, either at the groin or at the knees (we see accidental hits like that in combat sports all the time). The majority of WC practitioners today are so out of touch with real fights that they can't even follow up with these simple counters.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

What I mean by "dead" is that it isn't functional in practice because the practice of functional application has been removed.

It is like most TMA's they are dead but they are rich in dead movements and techniques that can be brought back to life with functional training. A lot of these movements may not look the same once they have been adapted because the functional living movement pattern will look different than what has been passed down.

There is a reason Bruce Lee claimed that with 2 years of boxing and wrestling training that a person could beat all the kung fu masters in china and he was a wing chun guy. That is why he had to adapt wing chin into a mixed martial art.

There are still people who can apply WC in combat, just very few, but I know them in HK (and in America). You must also realize that WC outside of HK (and even many in HK) is poor in general and medium level at best (if there is a belt system in WC like in BJJ, the best WC fighters in the west would only be purple belt), so don't project your personal experience to every WC practitioner. WC in mainland China is practically dead with no real combat application and most "masters" I've seen there uses the punches like bitch slaps; I literally had to convince people there who thought what they see in mainland is representative of WC by introducing them to real WC fighters from HK who can actually use the system. Bruce Lee never made the claim, and his WC is very mediocre, he just have speed and power to make up his lack of skills in the art. Yet even Bruce Lee adopts WC straight punches, parries, and trappings and he also trains in boxing; meaning that Bruce Lee knows that there are many things in WC which supplements the limits of boxing.
The problem is that most people only repeats the things they are taught, and never think about why certain techniques were taught the way they were taught, and with the lack of real situations to put these techniques into practice, they start to think that these techniques are just useless. Martial arts is like a language, it only makes sense when there are two people exchanging and like languages it is constantly evolving based on the way the other person is also changing. MA is developed based on responses from the other person and how to respond to that response and back and forth; the MA then gets more complex with more set ups and forms. But when you have two completely different martial arts from two utterly distinct traditions, its like speaking with another language that shares almost no cognates or grammatical similarities; the complex expressions and techniques then becomes useless because the other person can't understand any of it and respond accordingly. Under such situations, power and speed becomes the determinant again as if we are back at square 1 and most WC fighters today don't train anywhere as hard at physical conditioning as combat sports fighters do (simply because they have no incentive to).
However, given two experienced fighters in WC and boxing, I don't see how the former can't just exploit the later's limits simply through having more tools at his disposal. The WC guy can just focus on low kicks and a pure boxer usually has no answer to them just like they have little answer to a pro-kickboxer chopping at his thighs; that's why top boxers simply can't just transition into KB, MT, or Sanda without significant training to adapt to them.