Wing Chun kicks should be banned in MMA

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This is why you don't get girls Jimmy. You have pictures of bald crusty Chinese men from the 19th century and 20th century on your wall and stand in the local park pigeon toed squeezing your cheeks together and sucking in your balls whilst wearing silk pajamas.
Women are temporary, baldness is forever
 
And then back to reality...

I would give you less than 10, maybe 15 seconds max if he wanted to toy with you a bit, to last at close range against an elite WC fighter with no rules whatsoever and no limitations on strikes.

You positioning yourself as representing reality or as bringing it to a conversation is like Amy Winehouse positioning herself as representing sobriety or R Kelly positioning himself as a pg-13 babysitting fun time for teenage girls.
 
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You positioning yourself as representing reality is like Amy Winehouse positioning herself as representing sobriety or R Kelly positioning himself as a pg-13 babysitting fun time for teenage girls personified.
That pretty much reflects your knowledge about Wing Chun.
When was the last time you fought no rules whatsoever, rolled hands with an elite WC guy, or got finger jabbed in the throat at even 5% power?

My calculation on the above timing is based on an estimation of the above, with no intention to ever get into a no rules contest or use these techniques unless I was attacked with a knife or other weapon.

It's not about 'too deadly' it's about martial arts which are not originally for sport. Many TMAs have similar methods and could put you away very quickly if the position was there. A boxer who adopted such methods would also be very dangerous but it would be a different game then.
 
That pretty much reflects your knowledge about Wing Chun.
When was the last time you fought no rules whatsoever, rolled hands with an elite WC guy, or got finger jabbed in the throat at even 5% power?

My calculation on the above timing is based on an estimation of the above, with no intention to ever get into a no rules contest or use these techniques unless I was attacked with a knife or other weapon.

It's not about 'too deadly' it's about martial arts which are not originally for sport. Many TMAs have similar methods and could put you away very quickly if the position was there. A boxer who adopted such methods would also be very dangerous but it would be a different game then.

Who rank amoungst these wing chun elites in your mind, besides orr?

I could really really hurt and ko the relatively average chunner, even with sparring experienc, easily if I really wanted to, albeit I'd fall back on bjj and just sit on him or sub him if I was being generous. Does this mean for sure that there aren't a fair few chunners, even if a tiny minority in the grand scheme of the art, , that I couldn't beat? Obviously not, but if the standard chunner trained in the sparring rooms I've stood in at SBG, my local Muay Thai gym, the gym in Nagoya Japan taught by a direct student of Peter aerts etc. and went hard they get banged out in 3-30 seconds or less.
 
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Who rank amoungst these wing chun elites in your mind, besides orr?

I could really really hurt and ko the relatively average chunner, even with sparring experienc, easily if I really wanted to, albeit I'd fall back on bjj and just sit on him or sub him if I was being generous. Does this mean for sure that there aren't a fair few chunners, even if a tiny minority in the grand scheme of the art, , that I couldn't beat? Obviously not, but if the standard chunner trained in the sparring rooms I've stood in at SBG, my local Muay Thai gym, the gym in Nagoya Japan taught by a direct student of Peter aerts etc. and went hard they get banged out in 3-30 seconds or less.
A large percentage of Wing Chun guys nowadays cross train in grappling, Judo or BJJ also. It fits very well, a lot better than boxing as there is some overlap with the sensitivity applications.

Like I said there are many good guys out there. I rate Wong Shun Leung lineage highly.

Your best bet at surviving would be to stay on the outside and work and wing haymakers, and not let them get close to you.

Traditional WC struggles at the outside range, but then it's not originally designed for match fighting. If you got inside to try to do damage, is when your night would end.
 
A large percentage of Wing Chun guys nowadays cross train in grappling, Judo or BJJ also. It fits very well, a lot better than boxing as there is some overlap with the sensitivity applications.

Like I said there are many good guys out there. I rate Wong Shun Leung lineage highly.

Your best bet at surviving would be to stay on the outside and work and wing haymakers, and not let them get close to you.

Traditional WC struggles at the outside range, but then it's not originally designed for match fighting. If you got inside to try to do damage, is when your night would end.

My background is in MMA, Muay Thai, Bjj and I did some boxing and other arts. So I wouldn't just wing wild haymakers, I, and people both better and worse than me at the places I've trained, would probably jab them to death lol.
 
It doesn't matter what you think about the linearity fetish of what you claim is real wing chun, my statement was about the run of the mill wing chun that you tend to see in the vast majority of schools.
And who actually gives a damn about run of the mill hobbyist WC? We have already established that 90% don't spar and would do poorly against people who do. We are talking about the real thing.

People with a more cynical view of the chun might attribute this purely to the chun, you may not, but the reality is the image of chun propogated by the wing chun community (making it their responsibility largely) is that of a chain punch, tippy tappy trapping obsessed art.
This is a weakness of the way it was taught. You only learn the straight punch in the first form, the uppercut in the second form after maybe a year and the hook in the third form after maybe three or four years.
There may be various historical reasons for this and they lead to the proliferation of low level 'first form straight puncj WC'.

It's easily corrected by teaching the straight, uppercut and hook from the beginning while keeping the progressive structure in place.

As I've discussed, the evidence that the chun was always purposely meant to look like what orr does and that he doesn't take from boxing is poor and the claim its meant to support seems silly. Wing chun has more than just totally straight punches, and some would go as far to argue it has some more circular, not just diagonal, punching but that doesn't mean the shots it has are as close to boxing in the way they are thrown as what orr teaches or "hooks" in the modern sense.
It has hooks. It doesn't matter if the technique is a bit different than boxing they are short circular KO punches rotating the body to generate power. Hook punches.


What Orr does is going to look different because it is an application of the system to a new setting. It's still fully legit as it is technically and principles consistent with WC. If some overlaps with boxing have been also developed that's an independent path to some convergence.
Just as MMA 'boxing' looks absolutely nothing like Mike Tyson.

I'd say what you call "stereotypes" about wing chun are at least partly true, even if not as exaggerated as they might be in the worse examples. You even said that chun is all about a shot trying to be as direct as it possibly can be (I. E even it a punch is circular to fit a gap, it should be kept as tight as possible). Well I think the chun is generally obsessed with this to an overly robotic theoretical degree and that even if we account for the alleged neglected chun strikes, its still clear that chun is mostly very linear strike based.
Yes, the low level WC you have seen is.

If it did this in a slightly less cringey pseudo scientific, often unrealistic robotic way this would be fine (it's nice to have arts that lean more towards one thing as another principle wise, regardless of what one thinks of the chuns execution of these principles, as it creates specialist knowledge and gives people who want to fight more towards that way a home).

But even if the chun did appeal execute all of this well, it would still need to be aware of the flaws of being too dogmatic about this and that the straight line stuff can be beaten by looping over it with distance, footwork, head movement etc. Linearity in theory is great but sometimes it's good to sacrifice that a bit and even load up on strikes. Hitting first isn't neccesarily a win and even when it's not primarily about that, sacrificing the power of a shot to throw something you might not get a chance to land again and put someone out with just to hit that half a second or even second faster but put them out isn't worth it.

Theres also all sorts of things you can do to land telegraphed stirkes (which is not to say there isn't a lot of over telegraphing that is bad full stop in certain or most situations) or even hide their loading through distraction.
Yes I don't disagree and thats the advantage of boxing as a sport. There have been literally tens of thousands of fights and it evolves with various styles of doing it and refinement.
However MMA exposed many of the flaws of boxing. It was a complete reset.
WC is actually far more suited to MMA than boxing if trained correctly.
Some argue you can outdo WC at it's own game by training boxing, MT and Greco.
Maybe that's an alternate path to a similar approach but a WC guy can likewise enhance his game with some Greco or Judo. It works both ways.

As said the chun to me, seems, if we assume tales of its historical use are true, like it was a simplified striking system largely focused on volume, close range and straight punching/kicking.

Essentially a minimalistic approach which was basically a more arm punching, volume based, slappy, Chinese flavoured equivilant of classical pugilism, with basic street savateish kicks and without the same refinement under a punching focused ruleset handwise. Its use was possiblly originally geared, either initially or over time, more towards smaller ethnic Han Chinese men, and especially, women (regardless of the veracity of the folklore surrounding its founding by, or originally for women, which is largely poor) trying to fight similarly sized people or overwhelm the bigger ones with pure volume and aggression.
No this is just nonsense.
It was and is an extremely dangerous weapon, that's all. And not 'arm punching' but famous for close range tendon power.

Regardless of whether you think it can adapt well outside of its original confines, especially with cross training or not, wing chun probably wasn't designed to fight against people who knew how to wrestle, especially in the more freestyle sense. It's grappling from what I've seen is mostly, kind like point karate throws, based on being set up by flurries and other distractions and, unlike those karate throws, t's pretty rudimentary and sort of forceful apart from the odd subtle reap (some of it is literally tearing and yanking people by the head to the ground with only a little technique)

The grappling it was likely exposed to was some upright standing trips, sweeps and similar throws and untrained/shitty tackles not powerful refined double and singles or more refined judo equivilants of its throws.

As a result, just like the pugilism of the London prize ring rules that allowed upright hip throws like the cross buttock throw but not much else, wing chun takes an upright stance with similar details to LPR bareknuckle fighting and was probably always pretty vulnerable to double legs.
This is all irrelevant. Boxing and MT was not designed for coping with NCAA freestyle either.
Any sensible person will cross train a good grappling art nowadays and many are widely available. I happen to have Judo so it's very difficult to take me down by the average person who's not got a good background in wrestling or Judo, and I recommend any WC guy to have this also.
The upright stance is similar yes and maybe suited to BK. It can be adapted as need be there is no artificial rigidity. If boxing tried to be exactly how it is in boxing matches when used in mma it would have little use.


This combined with a different mechanics rooted in the equipment, training method's, martial heritage and inspirations (animals etc.) of the time is why it's doubtful that the chun looked like what orr does. Combine this with its focused approach and I don't think it was really much of a style it kickboxing in the modern sense. More like an older, mechanically different form of Chinese fisticuffs with some dirty boxing and elbows and very basic low attacks with the lower extremities, mostly straight fencing stuff rather than modern roundhouses and power kicks.

Whatever you want to conceptualize it as is up to you. We can adapt newer training methods. We also cross train and have learned what is happening from the MMA revolution. The result is an even more devastating and effective combat system.
 
When was the last time you did?
I said I wouldn't entertain such methods unless a weapon was involved or maybe I was outnumbered and being beaten badly.

What I'm saying is there is a middle ground between

"Garbage that doesn't work"
and
"Too deadly for the Octagon"

You really need to roll hands with an elite WC guy at least once in your life so you can experience for yourself what they can do to you and how little you can do to stop them.
You will also understand why they try to trap and control the hands so much since you can't afford to get hit much at all with those kind of strikes involved.
 
I said I wouldn't entertain such methods unless a weapon was involved or maybe I was outnumbered and being beaten badly.

What I'm saying is there is a middle ground between

"Garbage that doesn't work"
and
"Too deadly for the Octagon"

You really need to roll hands with an elite WC guy at least once in your life so you can experience for yourself what they can do to you and how little you can do to stop them.
You will also understand why they try to trap and control the hands so much since you can't afford to get hit much at all with those kind of strikes involved.

Except it's impossible to find an Elite WC guy because every time a master gets knocked out they're promoted to Hobbyist.
 
Except it's impossible to find an Elite WC guy because every time a master gets knocked out they're promoted to Hobbyist.
I don't know of any elite WC guys who have ever fought,apart from this guy in the 90's.



But he had no cross training in takedown defence so we didn't get to see much actual WC, the result was no different than if Roy Jones had entered MMA as a pure boxer in the 90's.
 
I don't know of any elite WC guys who have ever fought,apart from this guy in the 90's.



But he had no cross training in takedown defence so we didn't get to see much actual WC, the result was no different than if Roy Jones had entered MMA as a pure boxer in the 90's.

Except RJJ probably wouldn't have run straight into the guys shoulder haha. Regardless of what technique that guy was using that was not the play.
 
Except it's impossible to find an Elite WC guy because every time a master gets knocked out they're promoted to Hobbyist.
I brought in a WC guy to help one of my pro fighters with his gnp. He wanted to also help with the stand up side of things but after we pressure tested what he was offering we decided it wasn’t applicable, practical, useful, or helpful.

credit where it’s due, it’s great when combined with wrestling and jits for beating someone on the ground
 
I brought in a WC guy to help one of my pro fighters with his gnp. He wanted to also help with the stand up side of things but after we pressure tested what he was offering we decided it wasn’t applicable, practical, useful, or helpful.

credit where it’s due, it’s great when combined with wrestling and jits for beating someone on the ground

He would have been able to help with the standup dirty boxing/up against the cage part the most, alongside close range parry and inside fighting.

You are correct that it gels alot with grappling in clinch and even on the ground and finding opening to hit at that range.

The typical WC guy will be able to translate to all these areas alot better than standing outside at 'boxing or kickboxing range' since it applies chi said skills more which is what they do with most of their training.

 
"To the knee, it’s a very dangerous kick. Yeah, it’s a very bad kick because you have very bad injury from this kick,” described Shevchenko.

“Probably yes [the kick should be banned]. But at the same time, you just have to be ready. You just have to prepare,” Valentina said. “You cannot ban all kicks, right? You cannot ban everything. It’s kind of like it’s mixed-martial-arts. It’s kind of allowed.”

https://www.mmanews.com/2021/09/valentina-shevchenko-claims-oblique-kick-should-probably-be-banned/
 
I like how you edited your comment and inserted a picture of a woman wearing a Bruce Lee t-shirt into your earlier post as evidence of wing chun getting you when women btw lmao
 
I like how you edited your comment and inserted a picture of a woman wearing a Bruce Lee t-shirt into your earlier post as evidence of wing chun getting you when women btw lmao
I like how you overlooked the vid of Anderson Silva abandoning his usual striking style to do some Wing Chun and Filipino boxing when up against the cage, in favour of commenting on a chick wearing a Bruce Lee T-shirt.
<[analyzed}>
 
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