Wilson Kayden's analysis on Ward vs. Kessler (Ward centric)

[Kickzilla]

[YT]ZtS-rAGMJ90[/YT]

Of particular interest to me for this discussion: 4:16-7:30

What I got from that is it works on a similar principle as the long guard but affords control and range finding and pacing while moving.

The lead shoulder is raised and the right hand is in a high and tight/ear muff position which creates this virtual wall, the only opening is where the jab is being thrown which is interfering with your opponent's line of attack.

If you notice your vision when fully extending on the jab with your right hand high and tight your lead shoulder is raised, and the small opening you are seeing through can be even further closed by angling the jab slightly towards the opponent's lead shoulder/lead hand.

You can account for body shots by simply reverting the lead hand back to high guard position and crunching down a bit if necessary to account for the obvious vulnerability on the left side of the trunk (as an orthodox fighter anyway).

Surprisingly protective.

 

[Kickzilla]

I also wonder if the lead shoulder does a good enough job in protecting against the rear uppercut, and overhand right.

Many are aware of the axiom that good offense makes good defense, and plenty of discussion has been had on positioning, evasion, and lead arm tactics that act as defensive measures.

While this is a common sense take on the basic jab to be honest I don't see too many people working it this way (at least at my gym). Often people talk about the jab as providing that protection but abandon it in sparring.

I wonder why competitors never get reminded of this basic function of the jab both the fencing mind set and seeing one's stance and punch position as protection. More importantly why does it seem like very few beginners are taught it's importance?

It seems to be about high guard blocking, standing your ground, absorbing unnecessary shots, and spam punching (under the guise of teaching combos).

 

[giancana]

didn

 

[Kickzilla]

So what? Because fighters who personify (or personified) the style have lost doesn't mitigate the effectiveness or value of seeing the jab beyond just an "arm punch" or range finder.

 

[giancana]

at the end of the day it just functions if the opponent lacks the intelligence to adapt or rather make adjustments to the move, so this should not be seen as the ultimate solution yes it can be useful but it is important to not fall in a false sense of security
every position has it

 

[Stillw1ll]

Most of these youtube analsysis are so shit. Just a bunch of armchair qbs trying to act like they know what they are talking about, like a less qualified max kellerman. I have literally worked with virgil before and this shit is so far off base. If you want to learn to box, film study is good, but spend more time in the gym.

 

[Kickzilla]

I spend time in the gym (including sparring), muay thai is my main art though. I haven't claimed that this is some be all end all "solution".

I generally agree that most analysts on youtube are fairly qbs'ish, despite his monotonous style I don't see a ton of reason to discredit at least a handful of the videos Kayden puts out (I recall a giant discussion on a Floyd vid of his here recently).

I'm always looking to soak up knowledge though as boxing is a side passion of mine and my desire to incorporate various elements of it into my thai (things that aren't normally present there).

I remember you mentioning working with Virgil a while back I'm always open to hear your thoughts on the whole subject. Whether you want to expand on some of your experiences working with him, that's up to you of course.

 

[thugpoet]

Most of these youtube analsysis are so shit. Just a bunch of armchair qbs trying to act like they know what they are talking about, like a less qualified max kellerman. I have literally worked with virgil before and this shit is so far off base. If you want to learn to box, film study is good, but spend more time in the gym.

In the gym with who?

How do you learn if you don't watch flim?

 

[Kickzilla]

I don't get what the issue of validity is. There's straight up footage of Ward explaining it in his own words demonstrating the raised shoulder and tight hand. Most of his fights showcase the same tactic. Kessler aside, Ward vs. Abraham is another excellent example, let alone his recent fights in Rodriguez and Dawson.

 

[thugpoet]

I don't get what the issue of validity is. There's straight up footage of Ward explaining it in his own words demonstrating the raised shoulder and tight hand. Most of his fights showcase the same tactic. Kessler aside, Ward vs. Abraham is another excellent example, let alone his recent fights in Rodriguez and Dawson.

honestly idk if he was trolling or not...

ether way there are plenty of coaching in the NBA that has zero NBA experience in terms of playing.

Knowledge does not = application.

film study is the best way to learn the when and why.

 

[Kickzilla]

Well said.

The other thing is not all of us have access to the same calibre or style of coaching, let alone live in the same country.

I appreciate the perspective this place offers, and there's some great insight here. I try to read more then write, and I know that leaves me coming off as fairly bland in terms of contribution, but this here being a discussion forum, I try to bring up topics that interest me and hopefully get discussion going, and for me it's annoying people with a lot of questions I'm just a curious person lol.

The MT at my gym is legit and I'm fortunate to be learning under great coaches and fortunate to be sparring with legit competitors (even though my own goal on that hasn't been realized just yet, see I'm on the fence about competing but I have the opportunity to).

I believe in learning from anyone, or any perspective regardless of what experience I have because that's what creates an environment of sharing ideas.

That's what I thought this place was anyway, and the internet in that regard is great, it allows access to video and fight footage normal every day life experience doesn't always afford us.

I think Kell's criticism is valid, it just didn't seem to be coming from a constructive point of view, and I'm open to hearing more when someone calls bullshit on something. If someone's not interested in continuing the discussion, fuck it ah well, it's just the internet after all.