Will the Darce remain a rare MMA choke? (and submission thoughts for MMA)

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Drew Foster, Aug 12, 2010.

  1. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    11,760
    Likes Received:
    8
    will it gain momentum? There's been a lot considering it's not commonly known among MMA fans, and it's first use in MMA was only about 3 years ago. Then again, it's only been used in the UFC at UFC 69, 99, and 109. Outside of the UFC, guys like Babalu and Johny Hendricks have had success with the Brabo.

    A lot of people have tried it, come close, and missed recently, like Matt Brown and Joe Stevenson.

    What do you guys think? When people realize it's right in front of their faces, will this choke become as common as the arm triangle, which currently has about 20 UFC wins, or will it remain an obscure MMA choke, with less wins than the Anaconda?

    I don't know what my opinion is yet... I think we'll see a lot more of them, but I don't see it becoming as popular as the arm triangle, due to the gloves.

    My honest opinion is that it will never be a household name until someone like GSP or another big-name fighter wins a match with one.

    I wish all arm triangles got more play. In fact, Sonnen should have stuck with that attempt against Silva and maybe he would have won the fight.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2010
  2. MUFC

    MUFC Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,719
    Likes Received:
    4
    Borderline unhealthy obsession with this choke.

    Need some professional help, me thinks.
     
  3. newerest

    newerest Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,889
    Likes Received:
    9
    this basically
     
  4. Alaskantkdkid

    Alaskantkdkid Green Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2010
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Lafayette, Indiana
    Agreed. Also not sure why this is considered rare...
     
  5. platfox

    platfox Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Messages:
    10,177
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    On the long road.
    Part of me wants to keep it a rare submission in the MMA so that when someone hits it, I still get all gitty like a little school girl.

    Its the prettiest submission, imo. No cranking, jamming, or slamming into the position. The entries are usually really smooth and the finishes usually end up with someone unhurt but sleeping. How can you guys not love the darce!
     
  6. juji gatame**

    juji gatame** Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,704
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Selkirk, Manitoba
    I'm more of a Peruvian Necktie guy but the D'arce is sweet as hell.
     
  7. HowYaDurn

    HowYaDurn White Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    How about the Cincinnatti Bowtie.
     
  8. minotaurorush

    minotaurorush Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    379
    Likes Received:
    0
    it will probably get more and more common. its a very low risk choke thats a good alternative to guilotines and anacondas. only problem is it looks very similar to both and may be labelled as such.
     
  9. Kyuktooki

    Kyuktooki Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    778
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Seoul
    I recall this choke getting popular in large part because it was being used a lot in Japanese MMA by some of our (i.e. the grappling community who watches Japanese MMA because of the sick submissions) favorite Japanese fighters (e.g. Shinya Aoki). It sort of blew up when Aesopian add some European dude whose name I can't recall made excellent freely available instructional about it.
    When I look at Aesopian's post now it is more polished than ever so it does not seem to reflect that origin as much. I still think that it is clearly a type of arm triangle just as the anaconda is a type of arm triangle (its arguable anyways). I would not be surprised if some wins by anaconda or d'arce/brabo were mis-categorized as such.
     
  10. ijustwannasurf

    ijustwannasurf Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,157
    Likes Received:
    204
    Location:
    the 5280
    The Darce has only entered the canon rather recently.
    Give it time and I'm sure you'll see them popping up more often.
    I always guillotine before Darce- I feel there is more control with that overwrap and grip on the chin. In an MMA, or even no gi context, that control is key IMO.
     
  11. platfox

    platfox Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Messages:
    10,177
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    On the long road.
    Guillotines are probably the most common submission but I don't think its because of the control. Unless you hit it when you're already on your back or on your way to your back, you have to give up top position to finish. Also a failed guillotine can leave your arms fatigued.

    I would credit it to being the most common because its the easiest to slap on. Just my opinion.
     
  12. Kyuktooki

    Kyuktooki Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    778
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Seoul
    I can only guillotine from the guard or standing so I'd love to know how to guillotine from half-guard and side control because that is where most brabo's are going to come from (yeah I know you can do it when someone is underneath you when you sprawl but I think it is more common from other positions).
    Actually... I'd like to know more about no-gi chokes from side control because I basically just use variants of arm triangles (arm triangle, cobra choke (the inception choke), brabo/d'arce, and the rare anaconda).
     
  13. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    11,760
    Likes Received:
    8
    After reading your sig, which I assume was made after the Sonnen fight... don't you find it odd how whenever Nog gets battered and wins by submission, it's because he has heart and technique, yet... when Silva gets battered for 4 rounds and pulls a sub win, it's because he got lucky, and Sonnen fumbled on the 1 yard line?

    I agree and I do think the fact that he survived the onslaught to still win further proves his p4p status.
     
  14. Kyuktooki

    Kyuktooki Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    778
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Seoul
    Just in case it was not clear... I am confused why the guillotine is being discussed together with the brabo because I am under the impression that they are chokes you get from very different situations and positions (I tried to finish a guillotine I started when someone put me in butterfly guard in mount and quickly realized ti was f'ing difficult).
     
  15. platfox

    platfox Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Messages:
    10,177
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    On the long road.
    Check out some marcelo garcia competition footage. In fact he uses it a few times in the Marcelo vs Ryan Hall sparring video thats floating around. He hits it from bottom half quite a bit. He's a freak though and most people can't hit it with much success from that position. I think Drew (or someone) started a thread about Marcelo's guillotine not too long ago. Sorry I don't have a link.
     
  16. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    10,166
    Likes Received:
    24
    It will get more popular after more fighters practice it and learn to finish it well, and as more guys who are already good submission grapplers start getting into MMA. It's a good choke for MMA especially because you can use it to finish very quickly from nearly any top position, and because you see a lot of guys doing half guard with an underhook in MMA.
     
  17. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    11,760
    Likes Received:
    8
    It's not rare. In fact it's incredibly common, just not in MMA.

    This isn't directed to you, but I made this thread after reading some stats on the most common subs in the UFC. I was surprised the Darce only had 3 so I made the thread. I think I've only started one maybe two threads about the Brabo choke over the past year. In fact I usually don't start that many threads about specific submissions.
     
  18. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    11,760
    Likes Received:
    8
    The Marcelo Guillotine is beggining to get a lot of play in MMA (see Faber, Henderson, Dan Miller, etc.)

    I did write the following about the Guillotine at mginaction, and was told it was a good analysis of his Guillotine: this was a response to someone who asked if it was a blood choke, and for some of the details that make it work.

    "There are tons of videos on here that will help you to actually apply the choke. As far as the extra details, they might be different from person-to-person.

    First off, I believe the hip drop/elbow lift/leg over the shoulder/side crunch/Marcelo Guillotine is absolutely the best variation of the choke in existence. While the Darce/Brabo and the RNC have always been my best and favorite chokes, I'm finding myself currently catching more people with this choke, from more positions, than either of the other chokes.

    As for the blood choke question: You're squeezing the neck very tight, but the elbow flare and lift pulls the forearm right up into the trachea. It cuts off the blood, and I have seen one MMA fighter go to sleep from it, but the primary action for this Guillotine is attacking the windpipe. Matt Arroyo showed the choke and had a student puke on him. Most people tap immediately from the pressure on the throat. There's really no time to think or ride out the choke once it's on. For someone to be able to even stand the pain for 3-6 seconds to even go to sleep would be a great feet.

    The elbow lift accomplishes a few things. It prevents the opponent from bulldozing into you to relieve the pressure. That works with the old-school full guard Guillotine, which I haven't caught anyone with in forever, and I do think it will be phased out as time passes. The elbow lift can also be used to help keep someone on all fours if you are on your knees setting up the choke. Leo Vieira did this beautifully against Ryan Hall at ADCC 2009. Ryan was on his knees in the front headlock, and Leo was on his knees. He lifted the elbow up and over Ryan's back so Ryan couldn't posture up. Then Leo threw the leg over the shoulder and the tap came almost immediately.

    The elbow lift also makes it so that the choke can be finished anywhere. In a full guard Guillotine, if your opponent jumps his body to your left side, and you have his head under your right arm, you have lost the choke. With the elbow flared up, they are typically completely on the choking side of your body (let's pretend the right side again). If they do manage to jump over you before you can throw your left leg over their back/shoulder, they will still be in the choke as they land. The elbow lift allows you to post your forehead on the mat when finishing from the mount, giving you more stability.

    A lot of people don't know what to do with the bottom leg. Most people know the top leg goes over and in front of the shoulder, on the same side as the lifting elbow. Sometimes you can't get it in front of the shoulder and you have the settle for just getting it on the back. The choke should still work. The leg is just to further help them from jumping and/or pressing in to alleviate pressure. I like to take the bottom leg, and shoot the knee in between out bodies, and place the shin against their hip/waistline, with the top of my right foot up against their right hip. This also helps keep them in place. Marcelo does this a lot. The first time I saw it done was against George Sotiropolous at ADCC 2007. I'm sure there's other stuff you can do with the bottom leg, but I try to stick with this.

    Those are some of the details about the workings of the choke that make it so special. Literally all you have to do is get control of their head, and then get to the front headlock. This Guillotine can be finished from so many positions it's scary. If you watch the vids of Marcelo and Ryan Hall rolling, Marcelo finishes several times with Marcelo past his body on the typical "safe" side to be in a Guillotine choke.

    As setups are concerned, this site is FILLED with them.

    ALSO, don't forget the connection between the North/South choke and the Guillotine. They have very separate mechanics and details, but they both have 2 things in common. They both involve heaving the neck getting choked by one arm with one supporting/aiding arm, and they both have a lot of intertwined/similar setups. Many times if someone escapes the N/S choke you have a Guillotine and vice-verse. I believe the Guillotine is technically more versatile, because it can be hit from more positions, but it is very smart to become well versed in the North/South choke if you are really interested in this type of Guillotine. In many ways they go together.

    Hope that helped some. Some of your questions I'm not qualified/can't answer/don't know the answer to."
     
  19. Kyuktooki

    Kyuktooki Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    778
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Seoul
    Yeah but UFC is not all MMA. It seems like it has been used in Japanese MMA a bit more frequently. Guillotine from half guard seems interesting... was that covered in the MG 4 instructional?
     
  20. Gregolian

    Gregolian .45 ACP Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    49,960
    Likes Received:
    24,940
    Location:
    Gun Shop
    I hate it because being a newbie I can't feel it coming or realize it's coming.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.