Will Ngannou ever be HW GOAT since he lost to prime Stipe?

[3rdAccount]

We can objectively say prime Stipe was better than Ngannou

Yes. If he defends his title more than Stipe did, why not? He is likely to face Lewis, Gane/Volkov, Stipe and Jones though. No easy task.

Also, I agree with you. I think Stipe we saw in the first fight would have put up a good fight against Ngannou we saw in the rematch.

 

[rorschach51]

We can objectively say prime Stipe was better than Ngannou

Well I reckon if he can defend the title 5-6 times in a row and win dominantly then yeah he can overtake Stipe despite Stipe holding a win over him. Floyd holds a win over Manny, but I consider Manny to be the better ATG fighter based on not only his achievements but actually taking on the much much much better comp.

 

[3rdAccount]

The current version of Ngannou would have beaten Stipe in the first fight, probably pretty easily.

Very difficult to tell for me. It's hard to deny that Ngannou has improved on many aspects of his game but at the same time I think Stipe has declined quite significantly since his first fight against Cormier. We'll truly see how much Ngannou has improved in his fight against Lewis and Gane/Volkov.

 

[Poirierfan]

If you can't wrestle Francis, then you're fucked. This version of Francis beats any version of Stipe imo.

 

[3rdAccount]

Sounds like you’re trying to discredit his win over stipe by saying he beat prime stripe how do we know when stipe isn’t in his prime maybe Francis just gotten better

He's 38 and has had five more fights than Ngannou has had. Many of them were wars. If you think five fights are a joke, let's see how Ngannou looks in two or three years.

 

[moreorless87]

If you can't wrestle Francis, then you're fucked. This version of Francis beats any version of Stipe imo.

To be fair Lewis beat him doing almost nothing and I don't think we've seen enough to say that Francis isnt immune to mental weakness even if he definately looked better in the Stipe rematch in that respect.

I do tend to think Stipe picked Ngannou's pocket in the first fight though, fought very smart exploiting mental and and technical weaknesses rather than really facing him head on. In that kind of match I don't think Stipe has the defence or the ability to land with power from the outside to be favored, you can't be that hittable against Francis and I think you need to keep him more honest with the ability to blast him with power from the same range he can blast you.

 

[3rdAccount]

To be fair Lewis beat him doing almost nothing and I don't think we've seen enough to say that Francis isnt immune to mental weakness even if he definately looked better in the Stipe rematch in that respect.

I do tend to think Stipe picked Ngannou's pocket in the first fight though, fought very smart exploiting mental and and technical weaknesses rather than really facing him head on. In that kind of match I don't think Stipe has the defence or the ability to land with power from the outside to be favored, you can't be that hittable against Francis and I think you need to keep him more honest with the ability to blast him with power from the same range he can blast you.

I think that's the narrative but after the first round of that first fight, Stipe wasn't even exploiting mental or technical weaknesses. Ngannou simply could not fight back at all. It was like fighting a corpse who attempts to throw a fast but sloppy bomb every two minutes. Ngannou can pace himself better now but I'd like to see how he does in a five round fight.

 

[moreorless87]

I think that's the narrative but after the first round of that first fight, Stipe wasn't even exploiting mental or technical weaknesses. Ngannou simply could not fight back at all. It was like fighting a corpse who attempts to throw a fast but sloppy bomb every two minutes.

Honestly I think your narrative is more the invented one based on Stipe winning the first fight 50-45, a very dominant score but I think it allowed people to build up the idea that Ngannou wasnt in the match at all.

In reality he definitely was in the first round, he looked a significant threat to Stipe there but was I think undone by both becoming progressively too wild and not dealing with Stipe's grappling well.

The first fight was pretty much won by Stipe by the second round, that he rode out a safe decision rather than finishing I don't think makes it "more dominant", he was just controlling a gassed beaten opponent.

 

[3rdAccount]

Honestly I think your narrative is more the invented one based on Stipe winning the first fight 50-45, a very dominant score but I think it allowed people to build up the idea that Ngannou wasnt in the match at all.

In reality he definitely was in the first round, he looked a significant threat to Stipe there but was I think undone by both becoming progressively too wild and not dealing with Stipe's grappling well.

The first fight was pretty much won by Stipe by the second round, that he rode out a safe decision rather than finishing I don't think makes it "more dominant", he was just controlling a gassed beaten opponent.

That's not an invented narrative.

 

[moreorless87]

That's not an invented narrative.
View attachment 862471

I'm not seeing anything there to disaproove what I posted, watch the first round and tell he Ngannou doesnt loook threatening striking wise early on but also that he doesnt get tied up too easily with grappling and gets progressively wilder with his striking during the round making him easier to avoid/counter.

 

[3rdAccount]

I'm not seeing anything there to disaproove what I posted, watch the first round and tell he Ngannou doesnt loook threatening striking wise early on but also that he doesnt get tied up too easily with grappling and gets progressively wilder with his striking during the round making him easier to avoid/counter.

What are you trying to argue about? Go read my post again. I said Ngannou looked like a corpse after the first round so Stipe wasn't even exploiting Ngannou's mental or technical weaknesses after the first round. How am I wrong?

 

[moreorless87]

What are you trying to argue about? Go read my post again. I said Ngannou looked like a corpse after the first round so Stipe wasn't even exploiting Ngannou's mental or technical weaknesses after the first round. How am I wrong?

That Ngannou was gassed though doesnt mean he wasnt gassed due to those issues does it? he was gassed due to throwing so aggressively and having to power out of grappling in the 1st round.

That first round is really were the first fight was won and lost, I don't think what happened afterwards was a product of a purely technical battle it was one man being very badly gassed.

 

[g*r*b]

The first fight could be considered a prospect loss for Ngannou — a hell of a lot later in a career than they usually come, but such is the nature of his power that he didn't have to learn the lesson of how much he still needed to work on himself until he ran up against a fighter the caliber of Stipe. So it doesn't invalidate him from ever being a goat. But goat discussions are such ridiculous exercises to begin with, so reliant on subjective interpretations of incomplete data, that that isn't saying much.

 

[3rdAccount]

That Ngannou was gassed though doesnt mean he wasnt gassed due to those issues does it? he was gassed due to throwing so aggressively and having to power out of grappling in the 1st round.

That first round is really were the first fight was won and lost, I don't think what happened afterwards was a product of a purely technical battle it was one man being very badly gassed.

I don't want to be rude but are you dense? You have no idea what you are arguing about. I made it clear twice already that Stipe didn't need to exploit any technical or mental weaknesses that Ngannou has after the first round because Ngannou was simply too gassed to do anything. Then you say you disagree but when I read the rest of your response, I can't tell what your point is.

 

[3rdAccount]

The first fight could be considered a prospect loss for Ngannou — a hell of a lot later in a career than they usually come, but such is the nature of his power that he didn't have to learn the lesson of how much he still needed to work on himself until he ran up against a fighter the caliber of Stipe. So it doesn't invalidate him from ever being a goat. But goat discussions are such ridiculous exercises to begin with, so reliant on subjective interpretations of incomplete data, that that isn't saying much.

I agree. It's like saying because Stipe lost to JDS the first time, he has been invalidated. I still think prime JDS is a tough match up for any version of Stipe

 

[Sad Dad]

I’m a huge Francis fan and knew he’d be champ when he was sm brand new but he needs at least 2 or 3 title defenses before we even have the GOAT discussion. He’s a special fighter but let’s see what he does with champion pressure before we discredit the HW greats.

 

[nefti]

If he sets the record for most title defences? Ofcourse

 

[Koro]

Ngannou was far from his prime when he lost to Stipe. And we're not even sure he has reached his prime. Time will tell. Yes, he can be GOAT someday; but it takes time and consistency.

 

[Stixx]

We can’t because Ngannou was far from his peak in the first fight, and he still has room to grow whereas Stipe is on his way down. You could say that prime Stipe was better than inexperienced Ngannou. Let’s see the rubber match now.

 

[kenetics]

You need to stop living in the past bro

Why? The HW back then were better.