Why real muay thai translates so well to MMA, why American muay thai doesnt

[esum80]

"Judo throws" get used all the time in muay thai. The most common type of clinch takedown in muay thai is a footsweep. You also see knee picks, power twists, off balances, uchimata variations and all kinds of other takedowns which get used in judo and wrestling.

no doubt but i said that there are some judges and refs that frown upon them but as long as you add some kicking motion in there then it will pacify them.

 

[Snubnoze707]

How is it legal to toss if not with the hips?? How else do you toss a dude?

You can throw someone with your leg/thigh. As the rules say it must be a Muay Thai move. If it's a Judo or Wrestling throw it's considered a foul. Obviously there is some grey area and some overlap in techniques and it rarely gets punished but it's in the rules at the highest level of Muay Thai.

 

[Snubnoze707]

no doubt but i said that there are some judges and refs that frown upon them but as long as you add some kicking motion in there then it will pacify them.

Yup you nailed it.

 

[-guerilla-]

It's really a gray area, I don't recall a ref deducting a point but they give them lots of time to get up if the throw is questionable...in Thailand

In the USA points and dq pretty quick,
We just don't train muay Thai the way its intended to be used and that a shame because the infighting game is the reason its the ultimate style for mma transitions!

(great responses to this thread)

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

no doubt but i said that there are some judges and refs that frown upon them but as long as you add some kicking motion in there then it will pacify them.

I don't interpret the phrase "wrestling and judo techniques are illegal" literally, and clearly neither do the refs, since hundreds of wrestling and judo takedowns get used every week in the stadiums. How is a muay thai ref supposed to know what a judo or wrestling takedown is or isn't? I assume it just means that there are some takedowns which are legal in other sports, which aren't legal in muay thai.

And, I assume, if you're trained as a ref in Thailand you get more specific education on what type of motions are ok and which aren't.

but as long as you add some kicking motion in there then it will pacify them.

Are you referring to footsweeps specifically or all takedowns?

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I don't interpret the phrase "wrestling and judo techniques are illegal" literally, and clearly neither do the refs, since hundreds of wrestling and judo takedowns get used every week in the stadiums. How is a muay thai ref supposed to know what a judo or wrestling takedown is or isn't? I assume it just means that there are some takedowns which are legal in other sports, which aren't legal in muay thai.

And, I assume, if you're trained as a ref in Thailand you get more specific education on what type of motions are ok and which aren't.


Are you referring to footsweeps specifically or all takedowns?

Watching stadium MT I have seen a bunch of throws that were judo-ish, but also a bunch of throws that were straight "judo" hip throws, like some o-goshis / harai goshi / koshi guruma type of throws, without any kicking motion or even pretending to do so in any capacity.

It seems like the line is very blurred and I doubt that the refs always even know the difference or that it is tolerated under most circumpstances.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

It's really a gray area, I don't recall a ref deducting a point but they give them lots of time to get up if the throw is questionable...in Thailand

In the USA points and dq pretty quick,
We just don't train muay Thai the way its intended to be used and that a shame because the infighting game is the reason its the ultimate style for mma transitions!

(great responses to this thread)

Generally, IMO the West has a pretty poor interpretation of what MT is and in my opinion systematically take away what makes MT MT.

I just don't understand that. Why call a striking art "Muay Thai" if you strip it of what makes it "Muay Thai"??

What makes MT unique is mostly the clinch and the attacks from the clinch, i.e. "stand-up grappling" (i.e. from hand traps to body locks, sweeps and throws) and of course knees and elbows from the clinch.

Take the clinch away (save for 10 mn shitty head pull here and there the clinch is usually sacrificed) and you end-up with kickboxing.

Why do they call it MT, then? I just don't understand.

 

[esum80]

Watching stadium MT I have seen a bunch of throws that were judo-ish, but also a bunch of throws that were straight "judo" hip throws, like some o-goshis / harai goshi / koshi guruma type of throws, without any kicking motion or even pretending to do so in any capacity.

It seems like the line is very blurred and I doubt that the refs always even know the difference or that it is tolerated under most circumpstances.

this.

 

[esum80]

I don't interpret the phrase "wrestling and judo techniques are illegal" literally, and clearly neither do the refs, since hundreds of wrestling and judo takedowns get used every week in the stadiums. How is a muay thai ref supposed to know what a judo or wrestling takedown is or isn't? I assume it just means that there are some takedowns which are legal in other sports, which aren't legal in muay thai.

And, I assume, if you're trained as a ref in Thailand you get more specific education on what type of motions are ok and which aren't.


Are you referring to footsweeps specifically or all takedowns?

as far as i know, blatant takedowns that's clearly from a grappling art such as greco or judo are frowned upon. i've seen, with my own eyes, fighters at temple fair events to stadiums get warned. however, it's a toss-up: what one ref will let the fighter get away with may not fly with another ref. hence why i said, it seems to be generally accepted as long as you throw in a kicking motion, it will shut the ref up.

at the end of the day, we all know how much of an influence the gamblers have on the refs and judges, so that adds another piece to the puzzle.

 

[-guerilla-]

It's quite possibly illegal on paper and tolerated in the ring plain and simple.

I would think all observations are correct in response to this thread...the referees will warn Fighters against major throws and they let the downed guy have plenty of time to get up as if he had been fouled but nobody takes a point and nobody gets dq'd under virtually any circumstances.

Every now and then I see a Muay Thai Fighter literally try to throw the other guy out of the ring yet this gets tolerated and treated like a minor foul.

I think Studios use Muay Thai as a selling term but in fact only teach a modified version.

This is simply the business of martial arts whereas the liability and equipment is too expensive for full-blown Muay Thai and a watered-down version just sells better

I wouldn't have a problem with this if we could go to the local community center and practice real Muay Thai at our public park facilities but they won't let us so what we have left is a heavily diluted version.

we have given our society over to the weakest Minds Among Us... the liability blame game is crippling America's ability to maintain the True fighting readiness of military and martial Arts amongst the civilian population that we used to maintain in the past. We used to respect boxing and wrestling in the old days....we had youth leagues High School leagues

HOWEVER nowadays Little Johnny can get out of gym cuz he doesn't want to change in front of the other boys

Roman Empire anyone?

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

It's quite possibly illegal on paper and tolerated in the ring plain and simple.

I would think all observations are correct in response to this thread...the referees will warn Fighters against major throws and they let the downed guy have plenty of time to get up as if he had been fouled but nobody takes a point and nobody gets dq'd under virtually any circumstances.

Every now and then I see a Muay Thai Fighter literally try to throw the other guy out of the ring yet this gets tolerated and treated like a minor foul.

I think Studios use Muay Thai as a selling term but in fact only teach a modified version.

This is simply the business of martial arts whereas the liability and equipment is too expensive for full-blown Muay Thai and a watered-down version just sells better

I wouldn't have a problem with this if we could go to the local community center and practice real Muay Thai at our public park facilities but they won't let us so what we have left is a heavily diluted version.

we have given our society over to the weakest Minds Among Us... the liability blame game is crippling America's ability to maintain the True fighting readiness of military and martial Arts amongst the civilian population that we used to maintain in the past. We used to respect boxing and wrestling in the old days....we had youth leagues High School leagues

HOWEVER nowadays Little Johnny can get out of gym cuz he doesn't want to change in front of the other boys

Roman Empire anyone?

I am not sure that I agree with this.

I don't see why there would be more injuries in real MT than in K-1 kickboxing, wrestling and MMA, which are 3 widely available combat sports in the USA, so it cannot be about liability.

In fact, I would expect it to be quite the opposite. It is a known fact that Thais train smarter than westerners and do a lot more of playful sparring.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

as far as i know, blatant takedowns that's clearly from a grappling art such as greco or judo are frowned upon. i've seen, with my own eyes, fighters at temple fair events to stadiums get warned. however, it's a toss-up: what one ref will let the fighter get away with may not fly with another ref. hence why i said, it seems to be generally accepted as long as you throw in a kicking motion, it will shut the ref up.

I don't find this interpretation of the rules very plausible given the way muay thai is actually officiated and given how fighters actually fight. If the rules were so vague, then I suspect we would see alot of different kinds of takedowns being used: like high crotch lifts, or lateral drops. But we don't, presumably because they are illegal. But high crotches are no more "wrestling" moves than footsweeps are, which get used all the time without issue. So this leads me to conclude that it is more about the nature of the takedown than the origin.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

And there are certain takedowns which get used often but have little to no discernible kicking motion:

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

And there are certain takedowns which get used often but have little to no discernible kicking motion:

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

 

[Kanka]

A video of Pajonsuk doing some throws

I think the technique used in 0:06 would be illegal in thailand, while the technique used ar 0:23 would be okay. I think that's as close you get to a legal "hip toss". What do you guys think @jtwarwagon4life @esum80

 

[Kanka]

And where do you get this "kicking motion" thing from @jtwarwagon4life ? I've never heard of it and i've been taught plenty of legal dumps that used no kicking motion

 

[-guerilla-]

I am not sure that I agree with this.

I don't see why there would be more injuries in real MT than in K-1 kickboxing, wrestling and MMA, which are 3 widely available combat sports in the USA, so it cannot be about liability.

In fact, I would expect it to be quite the opposite. It is a known fact that Thais train smarter than westerners and do a lot more of playful sparring.

Your correct, however its not about reality, statistics or any type of scientific analysis...its about FEAR and the unknown, the things insurance companies hit the roof over.

Our lawsuit crazy society has handcuffed our ability to teach martial arts... meanwhile rock climbing, base jumping and all kinds of super dangerous Motorsports or just fine ...it's really all about culture and fear of the unknown!

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

And where do you get this "kicking motion" thing from @jtwarwagon4life ? I've never heard of it and i've been taught plenty of legal dumps that used no kicking motion

I think it pertains to foot sweeps only.

You may use a kicking or sweeping to the front or side motion or something that resembles it like in sasae tsuri komi ashi or de ashi barai.

You may not use reaps like in o soto gari or o uchi gari because this involve pulling your foot back in your direction to sweep.

Sorry for using judo terminologie but these are all very common throws so it may help in this debate.

 

[esum80]

A video of Pajonsuk doing some throws

I think the technique used in 0:06 would be illegal in thailand, while the technique used ar 0:23 would be okay. I think that's as close you get to a legal "hip toss". What do you guys think @jtwarwagon4life @esum80

agree on both. 0:06 was like a suplex lol