Why pull guard when you can do this??

[Rod1]

Back to the original question.

Sacrifice throws require setting up particular grips and require certain postures and reactions by your opponent in order for them to work. The whole "just try them, if it doesn't work you will end up in guard" is simplistic view and really doesn't hold water.

This as an expert opinion of a judoka? i find sacrifice throws the easiest to teach to bjj guys, i have had bjj colleagues pull them in the very same class i teach it to them, they require the same setup as an effective guard pull.

f you are not proficient at these sacrifice throws you are not going to hit them.

You don't use sacrifice throws at all, what makes you think you won't hit them, you haven't tried and yet you claim it won't work

Second you need to be able to hit these sacrifice throws against a single or double leg attempt. This one is not so hard if you have practice them and have the timing down.

LOL? so much wrong here.

YouTube - Flavio Canto Compilation

YouTube - TOMOE NAGE

the only place you will see sacrifice throws against doubles its going to be self-defense or katas.

 

[Carrera26]

the only place you will see sacrifice throws against doubles its going to be self-defense or katas.

????

Sumi/Hikikomi/Tawara Gaeshi are the most perfect, natural counters to the double, and are usually taught as such. In fact, Tawara Gaeshi is usually only taught as such. They are the highest % throws I see in the "Judo for BJJ" night at my local gym, and nearly always against the shoot.

 

[iheartthemount]

i've never done judo but i know about weight dispersion and in bjj we do go over a lot of trips from the back position. a while ago i had one at a tournament that led me to an almost finish to a triangle

at about 3 minutes into the video. sorry about the music and narration :/

and before anyone trolls on me, yes i've worked on my triangle finishes. thank you ryan hall dvd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[YT]-gpXcUzEZAo[/YT]

 

[Rod1]

????

Sumi/Hikikomi/Tawara Gaeshi are the most perfect, natural counters to the double, and are usually taught as such. In fact, Tawara Gaeshi is usually only taught as such. They are the highest % throws I see in the "Judo for BJJ" night at my local gym, and nearly always against the shoot.

Sorry but at what level of competition?

Try that against someone with a proper double and you will end up slammed hard an badly.

It will work against someone who uses a double leg because you have dominant grips, but its that's the case, you can simply floor him and take his back.

Agaisnt competitive level morote gari? not a chance in hell.

Show me any internationally ranked judo competition where any sacrifice throw has been used as counter to double leg.

 

[Rod1]

Im going to have and eat my own words now, i found this video

YouTube - Carrion (CUB) - Gao (CHN), morote-gari

Which got me rethinking, i always thought and was teached that ryo ashi dori or morote gari as its name implies was a reap from a balanced position, not a "tackle", also that legs should be reaped sideways, so that even if he manages to get grips he wouldn't have the momentum or the leverage to turn you over.

But watching some videos, it does seems that the morote gari is more like a tackle.which leads me to think that its a flawed technique.

for example of the morote i use and was teached we have rhadi ferguson.

YouTube - Morote Gari - Rhadi Ferguson

which is basically a pickup instead of a tackle, this version cannot be countered with a sacrifice throw.

I guess i was wrong but the point stands, most sacrifice throws, as with most judo throws can be used offensively, that's what kuzushi is for.

 

[redaxe]

Im going to have and eat my own words now, i found this video

YouTube - Carrion (CUB) - Gao (CHN), morote-gari

Which got me rethinking, i always thought and was teached that ryo ashi dori or morote gari as its name implies was a reap from a balanced position, not a "tackle", also that legs should be reaped sideways, so that even if he manages to get grips he wouldn't have the momentum or the leverage to turn you over.

But watching some videos, it does seems that the morote gari is more like a tackle.which leads me to think that its a flawed technique.

for example of the morote i use and was teached we have rhadi ferguson.

YouTube - Morote Gari - Rhadi Ferguson

which is basically a pickup instead of a tackle, this version cannot be countered with a sacrifice throw.

I guess i was wrong but the point stands, most sacrifice throws, as with most judo throws can be used offensively, that's what kuzushi is for.

Yeah, the morote gari in Judo is pretty different from the freestyle wrestling double leg.

If you do it this way, just squatting down, grabbing for the legs, driving with the head and reaping the legs out from under, you are very vulnerable to the tawara-gaeshi, sumi-gaeshi or similar sacrifice throw counter.

If you do a wrestling double-leg shot, where you shoot in low, get down on one knee, grab at the calves, lift up and pull the legs in while driving sideways with your head, such counters are much less effective.

In that case your most effective counters are a good sprawl or a guillotine choke.

 

[Carrera26]

As is always the case, really good techinque is always hard to counter, no matter what discipline it comes from. Morote Gari was Rhadi's bread and butter because he was/is AWESOME at it. If someone with serious, great training on singles/doubles did standup with me and understood how the Gi changes the game, I guarantee you I and better Judoka than I would often find ourselves well-friggin ipponed. (MUCH more by doubles than singles.)

The game always changes when you are talking about the top level, but few if any of us are realistically going to be at that level, especially the predominant BJJer on Sherdog that doesn't have a fantastic wrestling background, so even without the (many) examples out there of Ma Sutemi Waza being used against leg grabs my point would still be very applicable to the vast, vast majority of readers.

 

[mtruitt76]

This as an expert opinion of a judoka? i find sacrifice throws the easiest to teach to bjj guys, i have had bjj colleagues pull them in the very same class i teach it to them, they require the same setup as an effective guard pull.

I was a judoka before I ever did BJJ. I am not an expert by any means but, I am proficient aka brown belt. If you have an effective guard you don't really need much in the way of grips to pull guard, just one grip on a sleeve or collar is sufficient. Hitting a sacrifice throw requires a certain posture and/or reaction by your opponent. Just having the appropriate grips for a sacrifice throw does not mean the throw will be there.

You don't use sacrifice throws at all, what makes you think you won't hit them, you haven't tried and yet you claim it won't work

I have used sacrifice throws a lot. When I first started competing in BJJ they were pretty much my entire stand up grappling game. I would take a very erect judo stance and people could not resist going for the single or double leg. Then I would just hit them with a sumi gaeshi or a hikikomi gaeshi. Occasionally I would use an uchi mata depending on the circumstances. As my guard improve though and became stronger than my top game, I just started pulling guard in tournaments.

I did not claim that they won't work, they will. I have used them myself, but to be very effective with them you need a certain level of proficiency in the particular throws and stand up grappling as a whole.

the only place you will see sacrifice throws against doubles its going to be self-defense or katas.

The rice bale throw works well against doubles. Also they drive forward to try and complete the double you can hit them with tai otoshi variants.

 

[dzl25]

I prefer wrestling takedowns.

what he said.

 

[dzl25]

I was a judoka before I ever did BJJ. I am not an expert by any means but, I am proficient aka brown belt. If you have an effective guard you don't really need much in the way of grips to pull guard, just one grip on a sleeve or collar is sufficient. Hitting a sacrifice throw requires a certain posture and/or reaction by your opponent. Just having the appropriate grips for a sacrifice throw does not mean the throw will be there.



I have used sacrifice throws a lot. When I first started competing in BJJ they were pretty much my entire stand up grappling game. I would take a very erect judo stance and people could not resist going for the single or double leg. Then I would just hit them with a sumi gaeshi or a hikikomi gaeshi. Occasionally I would use an uchi mata depending on the circumstances. As my guard improve though and became stronger than my top game, I just started pulling guard in tournaments.

I did not claim that they won't work, they will. I have used them myself, but to be very effective with them you need a certain level of proficiency in the particular throws and stand up grappling as a whole.





The rice bale throw works well against doubles. Also they drive forward to try and complete the double you can hit them with tai otoshi variants.

i agree that the rice bale throw works well against doubles unless they come in with a perfect base. and that's not easy.

 

[Rod1]

As is always the case, really good techinque is always hard to counter, no matter what discipline it comes from.

As many high level trainers have said judo is first about tactics and then technique and strength.

My coach used to have an amazing morote gari (well ill call it ryo ashi dori), and he was not a superb athlete like Ferguson or a technique god, it was not even a part of his combinations.

He was able to setup the morote thanks to his tactics, he dragged you into grip fighting and footwork in a sense that you became progressively more straight up and nimble, then he feinted an overhand grip and immediatly shooted with his spine almost straight, you never even saw him and by the time you realized you were already flying if you managed to avoid it, you were now nervous about the double leg and lowered your stance which made you more vulnerable to the movement and aggresive stance.

Now, i have met very good wrestlers turned judokas and their doubles were telegraphed or simply they dragged the match to a clinched lower stance fight where the double was harder to pull.

Their double legs were probably technically the same or superior and they were much more conditioned, yet their doubles were less ineffective because they didn't set them up which requires tactical thinking.

Morote Gari was Rhadi's bread and butter because he was/is AWESOME at it. If someone with serious, great training on singles/doubles did standup with me and understood how the Gi changes the game

It depends, if you are matching someone known for its doubles, and you know that outside their double they are not very amazing, you will be expecting the double, therefore their double will be less effective.

, I guarantee you I and better Judoka than I would often find ourselves well-friggin ipponed. (MUCH more by doubles than singles.)

Me probably, but Rhadi had a hard time pulling his morote even in the Pan-Ams, because that was almost his entire game, and people were simply expecting it.

See how the cuban girl, who have easily the strongest in the womens division got his technique reverse, she simply shoot from miles away and with a very compromising balance, judo is about balance.

The game always changes when you are talking about the top level, but few if any of us are realistically going to be at that level, especially the predominant BJJer on Sherdog that doesn't have a fantastic wrestling background,

Again, its not the strength or the technical level, its the tactical thinking that makes a technique work.

so even without the (many) examples out there of Ma Sutemi Waza being used against leg grabs my point would still be very applicable to the vast, vast majority of readers.

I agree, but its more about bad implementation of morote gari than the effectiveness of the skill.

 

[Rod1]

I was a judoka before I ever did BJJ. I am not an expert by any means but, I am proficient aka brown belt. If you have an effective guard you don't really need much in the way of grips to pull guard, just one grip on a sleeve or collar is sufficient. Hitting a sacrifice throw requires a certain posture and/or reaction by your opponent. Just having the appropriate grips for a sacrifice throw does not mean the throw will be there.

One grip to pull guard? i doubt it, to pull guard you need to bend your opponent at the waist, that requires strength, it would be really easy to break the grip.

I have used sacrifice throws a lot. When I first started competing in BJJ they were pretty much my entire stand up grappling game. I would take a very erect judo stance and people could not resist going for the single or double leg. Then I would just hit them with a sumi gaeshi or a hikikomi gaeshi. Occasionally I would use an uchi mata depending on the circumstances. As my guard improve though and became stronger than my top game, I just started pulling guard in tournaments.

If you are a judoka, then you would be much better at grip fighting, an effective guard pull requires both grips, no matter how you put it.

I did not claim that they won't work, they will. I have used them myself, but to be very effective with them you need a certain level of proficiency in the particular throws and stand up grappling as a whole.

Yes, to pull them off, but again, you are trying to bring the fight to the ground, not win by ippon. Failing a tomoe will end ultimately in a guard pull, with the same success percentage.

he rice bale throw works well against doubles. Also they drive forward to try and complete the double you can hit them with tai otoshi variants.

I wouldn't try the bale rice throw on pretty much anyone, it would only work against inexperienced guys and it would give a false sense of security, rice bale throw is mainly self-defense.

 

[Connoisseur]

Dave Camarillo advocates flying triangles over flying armbars, as with a flying armbar if you miss you end up in worse positions, whereas triangles are easier to reclaim guard from a miss.

 

[Carrera26]

To me, the tactics and strategies you use to get your favorite technique off are just as much, or even more, a part of that technique than the throw/takedown itself. So if I say Rhadi has amazing Morote Gari technique or Innoue has great Uchi Mata technique, to me that = all the setups and strategy it takes to create the Debana (moment of opportunity) to pull them off. To me, that's the biggest epiphany a beginning Judoka can have. The throw is easy, just like an armbar is easy. It's the getting there that separates the lower belts from the higher belts. Maybe I assumed too much and should have voiced that.

That's also what makes sacrifices throws a really valid defense against most shots, because if your opponent shoots without proper set up well you have your base and that will give you the moment you need to roll and counter. This describes 99% of the shots I have been on the recieving end of.

 

[Rod1]

To me, the tactics and strategies you use to get your favorite technique off are just as much, or even more, a part of that technique than the throw/takedown itself.

In that sense i don't think Rhadi really has a good morote, he was quick an strong as hell, but most of the time, their morotes failed to score when he faced good competition.

So if I say Rhadi has amazing Morote Gari technique or Innoue has great Uchi Mata technique, to me that = all the setups and strategy it takes to create the Debana (moment of opportunity) to pull them off. To me, that's the biggest epiphany a beginning Judoka can have. The throw is easy, just like an armbar is easy. It's the getting there that separates the lower belts from the higher belts. Maybe I assumed too much and should have voiced that.

Well, in that case, i wouldn't call Rhadi's morote an awesome move, i mean who did he threw with it? people he severely outclassed.

That's also what makes sacrifices throws a really valid defense against most shots, because if your opponent shoots without proper set up well you have your base and that will give you the moment you need to roll and counter. This describes 99% of the shots I have been on the recieving end of.

Well you are right in that sense, but i much rather sprawl poor shoot attempts and work from there, IMO it has a much better advantage in that the attacker will tire himself much more when you sprawl.

In judo, its now pointless as there is no more morote gari, but still i wouldn't do them because if it fails its almost guaranteed that they will score the morote.

 

[Carrera26]

Why sprawl when you can counter? Every time you simply block a technique instead of turning it to your advantage you're simply giving them another opportunity. And it's not like sprawling doesn't take any energy from you either.

Everything you say is why Rhadi really isn't in my list of my favorite Judoka I study closely. He just happens to a very well known guy we can reference for that specific takedown. In fact, the precise situation you describe is why they implemented the leg-grab rules, because people were avoiding Judo and just trying to put a back on the mat without much fear of a counter. Of course, you can't get on the Olympic team and throw Morote sucessfully at an international level without more setup than you and I likely understand....

My favorite Judoka's to watch are the ones who show clear strategy and think more than one throw ahead. Even Innoue's Uchi Mata was very much a "throw it out there and see if it sticks" technique. But I feel like I could watch Keiji Suzuki all day long because he flows so well from situation to situation, and every time his opponent blocks or avoids it's just a new opportunity to throw. You just can't throw out footsweeps and rely on strength








We're kind of getting off on a tangent here, but it really does come back to the base issue that an effective strategy on the feet should be thinking more than one step ahead. Work on throws that can easily transition to guard if they fail and you have a LOT of upside without much downside.

 

[adoniscomplex]

tomo nagi (sic ) is my jam
im working on gettin efficient with the yoko variation

 

[BJJ_Rage]

whatever, wrestling>judo.

 

[Jaxx]

whatever, wrestling>judo.

Thank you for your contribution.


You clown.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

dont like it, stay in your little thread away from the bjj skin heads... or even better, why not create your own judo forum, so the rest of the grappling scum bag can stay away from your holy judo...

you clown.