Why mma fans have such a hard time accepting that the sport evolves?

[TrueFightFan]

Jesus, I can't imagine the level of delusion it takes to think Tito fucking Ortiz would beat Jon Jones. Tito's standup was so bad Dana While felt confident enough to challenge him to a boxing match. Let that sink in. Tito also lost almost every fight against the top tier competiton of his era, but, sure, he'd beat one of the GOAT candidates. Right.

To think that Chuck Liddell would starch Jones, when he lost 2 fights to Rampage, who Jones destroyed (and by Ranpage's own admission, he was in the best shape of his life to face Jon)? Insanity.

Dude, most of the elite fighters of the early 2000s had what would be considered almost amateur striking skills by today's standards. They had no footwork or feinting games to speak of, and only the most rudimentary of combinations.

Open your eyes.

Poor bastard, whoever the UFC sells you today, you are buying. You just MMA mathed yourself into moronity...

Rampage KO'd a lot of motherfuckers, jones hasn't.

You also claim that the 2000's fighters striking skills are shit, compared to today's fighters, but call jones a GOAT when EVERYBODY knows he has the fucking punching power and technique of a teenage girl.

jones isn't knocking out Ortiz, nor Liddell, so what's left? Is he taking them down and submitting them? He couldn't take down a one legged Santos. Now what do you have, realistically? A boxing match and jones isn't outboxing either of them...hell, jones isn't even outboxing Dana fucking White.

Let that "delusion" sink in.

 

[TrueFightFan]

Ya i wonder who won the fight in the end lol. Also, if you want to see mma evolution in motion. Look at royce grace vs matt hughes that is proof enough.

Nice try. Yes, the sport has evolved but the fighters haven't. As I recall, Hughes made Gracie cut weight, he was wearing gloves and a fucking cup, there were all kinds of rules in that fight and he only had to fight once...
Yeah, evolution.

 

[TrueFightFan]

I believe you are an old guy because you definitely like incoherent tirades. I agree with you that something isn't necessarily better just because it's new, but you seem to be taking the opposite stance that everything was better back in the day which is even more nonsense.

No, one thing you young guys get to enjoy, unlike back in the day, is it seems like every damned girl walking around is straight out of the movies.

Oh, and wet wipes....

 

[ferrisjso]

I don't get it is it the stakes the sport presents and sherdogers are too invested in the fighters and not the sport? I mean people pretty much accept this in other sports, as much as pele was a important soccer player people woudn't dare to compare him to ronaldo skill for skill cause the sport is much more competitive and different now.
Mma right now is bigger than ever right now with a way bigger talent pool than back in the days, still somehow the narrative perpetuated on sherdog by some is that some divisions are worse nowadays... Which its impossible to prove but mathematically it should be way off since talent coming to the mma world is more common now.
Anyway discuss.

Well in other sports it isn't neccessarily true for a variety of reasons(how popular was the sport in the past via today, does the sport reward better athletes with better results and if so how much etc etc) for example boxing used to get the best athletes many decades ago that it just can't today(at least in the US) which largely negates the evolution argument.

But in MMA it's obvious. When MMA started it was a fringe sport that was barely legal and as the sport becomes an actuallly feasible career path the level of athlethes was always going to improve dramatically. Vitor Belfort and Hendo are pretty much the only guys from the 20th century who were able to match the sports evolution even into the early 2010s.

Boxing went through the same evolution from semi legality to an institution and if anyone thinks John Sullivan or Courbett would stand a chance of even going the distance against any elite boxer from even the 1920s nm the 30s onwards they're kidding themselves.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

Rampage KO'd a lot of motherfuckers, jones hasn't.

You know who he couldn't KO?
Jon fucking Jones.

Jones finished him at what Rampage himself calls the best he was ever conditioned, healthy, and ready for a fight. Rampage admits this even though he dislikes Jones pretty openly.

Chuck failed against Rampage twice while in his prime.

Hell, Rampage is the one responsible for sending Chuck on his spiral after their second fight. Chuck was never the same after Rampage sonned him again, and it was only downhill from there.

You also claim that the 2000's fighters striking skills are shit, compared to today's fighters, but call jones a GOAT when EVERYBODY knows he has the fucking punching power and technique of a teenage girl.

Jones isn't a power hitter, but when it comes to technique he pretty clearly outclassed Liddel, Rampage, and Tito fucking Ortiz (lol) in variety of and breadth of tools.

jones isn't knocking out Ortiz, nor Liddell, so what's left?

lol wut?

Jones finished Rampage, Shogun, Machida, and Daniel Cormier, but sure, he wouldn't be able to finish Tito Ortiz, the guy who got finished in MOST of his losses.

He couldn't take down a one legged Santos.

LOL at you scraping up Jones' worst performance post USADA and pretending his peak run doesn't exist.

The guy outwrestled Olympian Daniel Cormier. Tito would be royally fucked.

 

[TrueFightFan]

You know who he couldn't KO?
Jon fucking Jones.

Jones finished him at what Rampage himself calls the best he was ever conditioned, healthy, and ready for a fight. Rampage admits this even though he dislikes Jones pretty openly.

Chuck failed against Rampage twice while in his prime.

Hell, Rampage is the one responsible for sending Chuck on his spiral after their second fight. Chuck was never the same after Rampage sonned him again, and it was only downhill from there.




Jones isn't a power hitter, but when it comes to technique he pretty clearly outclassed Liddel, Rampage, and Tito fucking Ortiz (lol) in variety of and breadth of tools.




lol wut?

Jones finished Rampage, Shogun, Machida, and Daniel Cormier, but sure, he wouldn't be able to finish Tito Ortiz, the guy who got finished in MOST of his losses.




LOL at you scraping up Jones' worst performance post USADA and pretending his peak run doesn't exist.

The guy outwrestled Olympian Daniel Cormier. Tito would be royally fucked.

You get an "A" for effort but only expose yourself, AGAIN, with your fucking MMA math moronity. So an old Fedor KO'd Rampage inside of one round, why couldn't jones? Wanderlei Silva KO'd Jackson several times in Jackson's prime, why couldn't jones?

If you could think rationally for just a minute, jones isn't KO'ing Liddell or Ortiz and he isn't taking them down, either, so how does he beat them?

I'm not saying that Liddell and Ortiz win easily, either, but it's a "pick'em" fight and that should tell you all that you need to know about the "evolution" of MMA. I will take you one further, Belfort was able to secure an armbar pretty easily against jones, do you think prime Royce Gracie doesn't?

 

[TrueFightFan]

Well in other sports it isn't neccessarily true for a variety of reasons(how popular was the sport in the past via today, does the sport reward better athletes with better results and if so how much etc etc) for example boxing used to get the best athletes many decades ago that it just can't today(at least in the US) which largely negates the evolution argument.

But in MMA it's obvious. When MMA started it was a fringe sport that was barely legal and as the sport becomes an actuallly feasible career path the level of athlethes was always going to improve dramatically. Vitor Belfort and Hendo are pretty much the only guys from the 20th century who were able to match the sports evolution even into the early 2010s.

Boxing went through the same evolution from semi legality to an institution and if anyone thinks John Sullivan or Courbett would stand a chance of even going the distance against any elite boxer from even the 1920s nm the 30s onwards they're kidding themselves.

I like the analysis and the fact that you brought up Henderson and Belfort actually further proves my point that the sport, itself, has evolved but the fighters haven't, they have adapted.

Belfort's and Henderson's styles are what draw the crowds and sell the tickets, so moving forward the rules were tailored to reward the exciting styles and punish the boring styles. A guy like Royce Gracie wouldn't last in today's MMA because his strategy was to take the fight to the ground, tire his opponent out or frustrate the hell out of until they made a mistake. They would be standing Gracie up every 30 seconds in today's sport and he couldn't whip that quick kick to the nuts to get fighters to lower their guard.

If MMA, as a sport, didn't evolve, Jiu Jitsu fighters would still dominate.

 

[horc00]

LOL at "evolution". FFS Derrick Lewis got a title shot.

MMA and fighters didn't "evolve". Sure they got a little better but not always. Striking, not so much. Grappling, significantly more. BJ Penn being clueless about the Imanari roll isn't because Ryan Hall is more "evolved", it's simply because BJ hasn't been motivated enough to train and update himself on new techniques. And a lot of what happened between Pride and UFC is difference in rules and fighters adapting to it.

And LOL at "stacked" divisions. There's no such thing as a stacked division, it only means that the fighters in that division are all closely matched. And when a skilled fighter head and shoulders above the rest comes along, suddenly sherdoggers think the division isn't stacked and all the other fighters suck.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

So an old Fedor KO'd Rampage inside of one round, why couldn't jones? Wanderlei Silva KO'd Jackson several times in Jackson

An old Fedor KO'ed an old and washed up Rampage, you mean?

What's other irrelevant grandpa fights are you gonna bring up next? Liddel vs Tito 4 to prove Tito can strike?

Wanderlei Silva KO'd Jackson several times in Jackson's prime, why couldn't jones?

Rampage's prime was technically his UFC run, but aside from that, Wanderlei is more powerful than Jones. So what?

Are you a meathead who thinks power = the better fighter?

Rampage was clearly more powerful than Jones, too. Guess who got finished?

If you could think rationally for just a minute, jones isn't KO'ing Liddell or Ortiz and he isn't taking them down, either, so how does he beat them?

LOL at Jones being unable to take down Liddell and especially Tito.

And Jones wouldn't KO them. He'd just TKO them or submit them, just like he did superior fighters like Rampage and Cormier.

Neither Chuck nor Tito were ever the best LHWs of their eras, let alone a GOAT candidate like Jones. Tito got beat by almost every name that mattered, and Chuck was always Rampage's bitch. Chuck was extremely lucky that he only got to face Wanderlei after Cro Cop and Henderson ruined him back to back.

 

[moreorless87]

I think that is how you can tell who in the forum trained or not. The older crop of some guys have huge holes in the game. It isn't their fault; it is just the matter of how training and competition was very silo like.
In the mid 2000s; very few in MMA had the technical ability to throw high kicks. We used to cream over Cro Cop spamming high kicks with no setup in MMA. While people who watched K1 and practiced kickboxing were like oh these MMA guys aren't at the same level yet. Same with wrestling and grappling.
Fast forward today maybe the fights seem a little more boring because there are less weaknesses to exploit. Competition at an entry level seem more even. Even one dimensional guys by today's standard need to know a bit of everything. Of course there will be outliers but they are less and less.

I'm sorry but this post is just totally detached from reality, Crocop didnt setup his highkicks and "spammed" them? care to tell me which fights he was "spamming" highkicks? he was famous for actually throwing very few highkicks but because they were so well setup and timed they often led to finishes.

You could definately argue more highkicks land now overall but I think thats as much a tactical shift and we actually get much more "highkick spam" today, fighters throwing out low percentage moves which sometimes land were as back in the 00's fewer did that.

 

[Yrat]

I don't get it is it the stakes the sport presents and sherdogers are too invested in the fighters and not the sport? I mean people pretty much accept this in other sports, as much as pele was a important soccer player people woudn't dare to compare him to ronaldo skill for skill cause the sport is much more competitive and different now.
Mma right now is bigger than ever right now with a way bigger talent pool than back in the days, still somehow the narrative perpetuated on sherdog by some is that some divisions are worse nowadays... Which its impossible to prove but mathematically it should be way off since talent coming to the mma world is more common now.
Anyway discuss.

UFC in general is oversaturated. You do not get more exited anymore like it was year 2007 when GSP beated Matt Hughes and got the title and Randy Couture was the HW champ.

I just do not care anymore, only benefit now are more nationalities.

 

[TrueFightFan]

An old Fedor KO'ed an old and washed up Rampage, you mean?

What's other irrelevant grandpa fights are you gonna bring up next? Liddel vs Tito 4 to prove Tito can strike?




Rampage's prime was technically his UFC run, but aside from that, Wanderlei is more powerful than Jones. So what?

Are you a meathead who thinks power = the better fighter?

Rampage was clearly more powerful than Jones, too. Guess who got finished?




LOL at Jones being unable to take down Liddell and especially Tito.

And Jones wouldn't KO them. He'd just TKO them or submit them, just like he did superior fighters like Rampage and Cormier.

Neither Chuck nor Tito were ever the best LHWs of their eras, let alone a GOAT candidate like Jones. Tito got beat by almost every name that mattered, and Chuck was always Rampage's bitch. Chuck was extremely lucky that he only got to face Wanderlei after Cro Cop and Henderson ruined him back to back.

You are a sad little man...

Jackson just proved how overhyped the UFC was, like Noguiera did. In the twilight of both of their careers, they came over and won UFC gold. Jackson was having to cut weight from 250lbs, he'd gotten so fat.

All of the other crap that you mentioned about Liddell and Ortiz is just fanboy gibberish. If Santos or Reyes had never fought jones and I brought up that I thought they could beat him, you'd be going on and on about how jones "would never lose to these nobodies" and bring up their records and losses.

Styles make fights and those would have been some damn good fights.

 

[Xuh]

Why mma fans have such a hard time accepting that the sport evolves?

Because the earth is only 5,000 years old you godless heathen.
Wake up and repent, sheeple

 

[A.S. Deep]

Maybe. For sure a top LHW, Cro Cop never bulked and never weighed more than 230lbs. Thst is a LHW

Cro Cop once fought at 213lbs, meaning he was lighter than Costa who's a MW lol

 

[Oceanmachine]

Cro Cop once fought at 213lbs, meaning he was lighter than Costa who's a MW lol

Didnt Costa weigh 213lbs? Also Costa is afraid to fight men his same weight or a little more and I cant respect that.

You are a sad little man...

Jackson just proved how overhyped the UFC was, like Noguiera did. In the twilight of both of their careers, they came over and won UFC gold. Jackson was having to cut weight from 250lbs, he'd gotten so fat.

All of the other crap that you mentioned about Liddell and Ortiz is just fanboy gibberish. If Santos or Reyes had never fought jones and I brought up that I thought they could beat him, you'd be going on and on about how jones "would never lose to these nobodies" and bring up their records and losses.

Styles make fights and those would have been some damn good fights.

Jackson did not cut 45lbs of water weight.

When we say cut weight we usually mean it in a water weight cut context. Jackson did get to 250lbs it was mainly fat had to lose his fat

He was around 230s on fight night as I recall when at LHW

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

Jackson just proved how overhyped the UFC was, like Noguiera did. In the twilight of both of their careers, they came over and won UFC gold. Jackson was having to cut weight from 250lbs, he'd gotten so fat.

Jackson was in the best shape of his life when he fought Jones, by his own admission, even after the loss when he was salty. WTF are you talking about?

All of the other crap that you mentioned about Liddell and Ortiz is just fanboy gibberish

Yeah, it's "fanboyish" to bring up Ortiz's horrible record against the actual elite fighters of his era, Chuck not even being the best LHW in his prime, Jones' absolute dominance over fighters better than either of them, or Jones outwrestling Olympian Daniel fucking Cormier.

You know, actual facts.

But sure, bro, Tito Ortiz would out wrestle Jon Jones. <45>

 

[ferrisjso]

LOL at "evolution". FFS Derrick Lewis got a title shot.

MMA and fighters didn't "evolve". Sure they got a little better but not always. Striking, not so much. Grappling, significantly more. BJ Penn being clueless about the Imanari roll isn't because Ryan Hall is more "evolved", it's simply because BJ hasn't been motivated enough to train and update himself on new techniques. And a lot of what happened between Pride and UFC is difference in rules and fighters adapting to it.

And LOL at "stacked" divisions. There's no such thing as a stacked division, it only means that the fighters in that division are all closely matched. And when a skilled fighter head and shoulders above the rest comes along, suddenly sherdoggers think the division isn't stacked and all the other fighters suck.

That's HW where the evolution has been the most sluggish. But even there it's coming.

 

[TrueFightFan]

Jackson was in the best shape of his life when he fought Jones, by his own admission, even after the loss when he was salty. WTF are you talking about?





Yeah, it's "fanboyish" to bring up Ortiz's horrible record against the actual elite fighters of his era, Chuck not even being the best LHW in his prime, Jones' absolute dominance over fighters better than either of them, or Jones outwrestling Olympian Daniel fucking Cormier.

You know, actual facts.

But sure, bro, Tito Ortiz would out wrestle Jon Jones. <45>

Jackson said he was "in the best shape of his life", Bill Clinton said "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" and jon jones said "I have never used steroids or even did drugs".....

Tell me, little buddy, what did Dana White tell you to believe today?

 

[TrueFightFan]

Didnt Costa weigh 213lbs? Also Costa is afraid to fight men his same weight or a little more and I cant respect that.


Jackson did not cut 45lbs of water weight.

When we say cut weight we usually mean it in a water weight cut context. Jackson did get to 250lbs it was mainly fat had to lose his fat

He was around 230s on fight night as I recall when at LHW

Needless to say that he was not in his prime when he came to the UFC, HOWEVER, Dana White and the UFC P.R. machine had to spin it that way because their boy, Chuck, had just gotten manhandled by a Pride castoff.

 

[Oceanmachine]

Needless to say that he was not in his prime when he came to the UFC, HOWEVER, Dana White and the UFC P.R. machine had to spin it that way because their boy, Chuck, had just gotten manhandled by a Pride castoff.

End of his prime id say

Rampage wasent old back then and didnt have as many injuries but yeah agree

Pride LHW division and HW and LW was all superior

 

[Oceanmachine]

Needless to say that he was not in his prime when he came to the UFC, HOWEVER, Dana White and the UFC P.R. machine had to spin it that way because their boy, Chuck, had just gotten manhandled by a Pride castoff.

That why I say Penn was overrated because WEC and Pride and Strikeforce fighters upon merger destroyed all the old UFC guys