Why mma fans have such a hard time accepting that the sport evolves?

[kflo]

Thank you. I was just having this argument with @kflo. He tired saying this generation of LHW is good.

I told him the current UFC 205 division is a raging dumpster fire.

“This generation” includes older fighters, fighters in mid 30s and younger fighters. Saying it’s a dumpster fire is stupid. You don’t know how good many of the top 10 actually are.

Again, when jones became champ it looked like he had taken over a stacked division. A few years later and they were almost all gone from the division, replaced by guys who weren’t even on the radar. Rumble was still a fuckin ww when jones became champ. DC was in the SF HW GP.

The lhw’s today would be at least competitive with the top 10 I posted from aug 2010.

 

[kflo]

Bader and Davis were also in that same division as well. I can't believe anyone honestly believes LHW is better now than the time period you are talking about. Having said that I do think LHW will be much better than it is now in 2 years as the younger LHWs get more experience.

I don’t think anyone thinks there are lhw’s today at their peak the way jbj, dc, aj and Gus peaked. That was a pretty unique time and hardly a negative reflection of today that they aren’t at that exact same place now.

 

[kflo]

Well if post Prime Glover is the number one contender it's not far-fetched to guess Prime Glover would dominate the contenders.
As for AJ and Gus seeing their results against elite competion it's also very probable they would easily wreck the division

Current glover hasn’t beaten any of the current top lhw’s at their best with exception of smith, and it’s debatable where smith fits in the top 10. Suggesting that where he is now means glover from 8 years ago would dominate contenders current glover hasn’t faced is pretty dumb. Not to mention it’s not easy to even measure how current glover compares to “prime” glover.

Again, we don’t know the ceiling yet of many of today’s top lhw’s.

 

[Sickbro69420]

I think you're confused because you're glossing over details like over saturation of cards, quality of cards, poor judging, fighter compensation (some people care and it's a factor). Spend money on the actual talent and invest some of that marketing into them and build them up properly and out of Connor McGregors pockets. There's a number of other reasons why people don't want to have open arms with change in a sport they grew up with.
The UFC business model changing is not the same as an evolution of the sport. I assume that's what you're alluding to. The other organizations are being welcomed with open arms. Maybe the UFC needs to change it's fight rules to spice it up. Bring back pride rules and that might negate some of the shitty decisions they make. Also just bringing in tons of talent doesn't equal a good product.
The UFC and bootlickers like yourself have conflated the term mma and UFC and are confused now and think they are the entirety of the sport. They also believe changing business models is an actual evolution of the sport. At the end of the day it's about the fighting and they're fucking it up with some of the points I made. The business is putting out less quality product and and focusing on changing the wrong things and essentially cutting corners. People see this and they are hip to it. Regardless of the Kool aid you drink.
How many fucking headline cards with rematches do you need. How many macee barberes or sun par fighters will be pushed while real badasses are making peanuts and not being promoted. There needs to be some intelligences when bringing up fighters. Not just pushing them and hoping it works. How many bad decisions by judges have ruined a fighters and spectators night.
I literally just thought about it and typed. Surely there has to be a team at the UFC, which I'm assuming you're talking about MMA as UFC since this is in a ufc discussion. That can go through and see what works, even though. You might have to move resources around to make it work instead of arbitrarily sticking to a business model.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Thank you. I was just having this argument with @kflo. He tired saying this generation of LHW is good.

I told him the current UFC 205 division is a raging dumpster fire.

It has the potential to be good but a lot of the guys just don't have the experience yet. I think the division is going to be a lot better in 2 years.

 

[theleerygoose]

Your description of Shogun is Shogun when he was passed his best. This is not a nostalgia thing like everyone is claiming it is newer fans having only seen great fighters after they had declined assuming they were always like that.

For the majority of Shogun's career he had an iron chin and great cardio. Wanderlei used to use his jab and kicks as well as takedowns but as he got older he became more one dimensional same goes for Rampage who used to wrestle a lot before he had too many injuries.

LHW is improving but it has been better in the past, same goes for HW.

I was a fan back then and your bullshitting yourself if you think LHW was better in the past then it is now. Shogun has that Cain thing going on where everyone has to fabricate when he was in and out of his prime to excuse his losses. He was in his prime when he left Pride and got beatdown by Forrest… Sorry theres no version of Jon Jones that loses to Forrest Griffin and LHW wasnt as good then as it is now.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

I was a fan back then and your bullshitting yourself if you think LHW was better in the past then it is now. Shogun has that Cain thing going on where everyone has to fabricate when he was in and out of his prime to excuse his losses. He was in his prime when he left Pride and got beatdown by Forrest… Sorry theres no version of Jon Jones that loses to Forrest Griffin and LHW wasnt as good then as it is now.

Sorry but when Jones, DC, Rumble, Glover, Gus, Bader and Davis were all in their primes the LHW division was better than it is now.
LHW was clearly better between 2011 and 2015 than it is now.

You apparently don't know that injuries are a thing either with how you glossed over Shogun having a blown ACL before he fought Forrest and you sound like a total noob to MMA with your attempted use of MMA math, besides what you said makes no sense Jones isn't at LHW right now so why are you talking like he is?

I very much doubt you were watching MMA at that time with your lack of knowledge.

 

[Kinku]

You do not see tons of Lay and Pray fighters in the UFC now.

 

[Boxingfan998]

Does it really evolve though? Fighting is fighting. I think it reached kind of peak point already years ago in GSP era. I'm kind of a zoomer and watching older fights, seems the same to me.
In fact the guys back then look more violent because clearly on heavier juice, pre USADA era.

 

[SalvadorAllende]

True. Look at the guys fighting for the LHW belt next. Gus beat them both (in 2016 and 2017).
And he entered his prime pretty much when the belt ceased to change hands. Before Jones won the title it was a stacked division, so many good match-ups back then.
The problem is they all grew too old pretty much at the same time, and now we have these guys in the top that DC and Rumble would have murked.

Prime Gus was awesome but you have to take into consideration that Jan improved a lot and he is still the weakest champion of all.
LHW in general is better now but there are a lot of great talents outside the UFC. Bellators 205 division is as good as the UFC these days (at least at the top). I think guys like Davis or Nemkov could potentially cross the bridge and claim the title at any moment.

HW is not even close... I think Ngannou and Gane would have run through most HWs from the past. And I love Fedor and Mirko but the size difference alone would be ridiculous.

 

[Hatorade]

Nostalgia prevents people from accepting that all sports evolve.

Individual athletes like Pele, Pete Rose, Lawrence Taylor, or Kareem are as good as anyone in their respected sports today, but with that said, the 1970's Pittsburg Steelers wouldn't win game in the NFL today. The 80's showtime Lakers would be competitive but not win an NBA championship, and the 1930's NY Yankees would probably go winless against modern MLB teams.

MMA isn't a team sport, but overall talent, training, and strategy have improved immensely. There's probably 50 fighters on the UFC roster right now that that would beat anyone in Pride but the top guys. People don't want to believe that a top 15 Middleweight in the UFC would probably beat pioneers like Don Frye, Ken Shamrock, or Kevin Randleman that were all legit guys in their day.

 

[Bruce Lee666]

I don't get it is it the stakes the sport presents and sherdogers are too invested in the fighters and not the sport? I mean people pretty much accept this in other sports, as much as pele was a important soccer player people woudn't dare to compare him to ronaldo skill for skill cause the sport is much more competitive and different now.
Mma right now is bigger than ever right now with a way bigger talent pool than back in the days, still somehow the narrative perpetuated on sherdog by some is that some divisions are worse nowadays... Which its impossible to prove but mathematically it should be way off since talent coming to the mma world is more common now.
Anyway discuss.

is this evolution?!

Anderson an old generation guy managed to fight a modern champion.

Wrestling hasn't changed, Striking hasn't changed, Jiu jitsu is the same in mma.

 

[RJ43]

Glover Texeira is fighting for a belt. Tell more more about this evolution you speak of.

 

[Bruce Lee666]

Nostalgia prevents people from accepting that all sports evolve.

Individual athletes like Pele, Pete Rose, Lawrence Taylor, or Kareem are as good as anyone in their respected sports today, but with that said, the 1970's Pittsburg Steelers wouldn't win game in the NFL today. The 80's showtime Lakers would be competitive but not win an NBA championship, and the 1930's NY Yankees would probably go winless against modern MLB teams.

MMA isn't a team sport, but overall talent, training, and strategy have improved immensely. There's probably 50 fighters on the UFC roster right now that that would beat anyone in Pride but the top guys. People don't want to believe that a top 15 Middleweight in the UFC would probably beat pioneers like Don Frye, Ken Shamrock, or Kevin Randleman that were all legit guys in their day.

look at this Flying Scissor Heel hook, today in the "evolution" of mma we have champions with ridiculous Grappling like Adesanya and Francis Ngannou.

give Pride guys a young body without injury and they fuck a lot of modern fighters.

 

[Hatorade]

look at this Flying Scissor Heel hook, today in the "evolution" of mma we have champions with ridiculous Grappling like Adesanya and Francis Ngannou.

give Pride guys a young body without injury and they fuck a lot of modern fighters.

Moves like flying heel hooks don't work in modern MMA. Same with somersault heel hooks or lots of other shit that doesn't work on trained fighters that understand submissions. And let's give francis some credit. If fighters like Cain or Stipe in 2nd fight couldn't get him down, I would say his grappling is not to shabby. But yes, he plays to his strengths

Also, the Anderson Heel Hook was an obvious work.

 

[kflo]

Sorry but when Jones, DC, Rumble, Glover, Gus, Bader and Davis were all in their primes the LHW division was better than it is now.
LHW was clearly better between 2011 and 2015 than it is now.

You apparently don't know that injuries are a thing either with how you glossed over Shogun having a blown ACL before he fought Forrest and you sound like a total noob to MMA with your attempted use of MMA math, besides what you said makes no sense Jones isn't at LHW right now so why are you talking like he is?

I very much doubt you were watching MMA at that time with your lack of knowledge.

You couldn’t definitively say the 2011 top 10 beats the 2021 top 10 in a head-to-head tournament. Except to say 2011 jbj is the best.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

Probably has more to do with missing their All-American champions and the fallacy UFC created in the beginning that Americans are the best at combat sports. Mixed with the Tapout, metal music, Ed Hardy era it definetly had a target audience.

Yeah all those early Americans who dominated like first Royce, then GOATs like Fedor, Anderson, GSP and on and on!

 

[Merlotte's]

20 years from now there still won’t be a fighter who can defeat Jon Jones. Some people got it, some don’t.

 

[Epicman1324]

Cristiano Ronaldo and Pele cant be in the same sentence. Only if you wanna say Pele >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ronaldo. Not my fault If you havent seen Pele in action, but those who have seen both in action have absolutely no doubt about it. Also Ronaldinho >>>>> Cristiano, Ronaldo >>>>>>>> Cristiano, just to clear the mud.
That said, yes, as the sport grows more and more talented fighters we have.
Im just hoping we get a new Fedor, a new Andy, really showmakers. These 'old' styled guys would completely dominate their weight classes NOW with the skill lvl they had back in the day

Putting Fat Ronaldo and Ronaldinho above Cristiano invalidates literally everything you will ever say about sports.

 

[Fesaine]

Same reason why Ali and Tyson would still do well in today's Boxing HW div. Sometimes a special talent emerges. And it's always "he was ahead of his time". Clocking folks with ease. Footwork and agility at HW never seen before and some could say since.

For UFC "The evolution of sport", "The new breed", started around 2010, in Brock's Time, and was a selling point, that the grow in skill would be side-by-side with the growing numbers they bring in. Yet, one is ability, the other is business, and those 2 don't match at all.

At any point a BJ Penn-type fighter can come along and shock in his first 5 fights. Already on elite level in all areas. It has been like this for decades.

I read a post today saying UFC has 1100 fighters on the roster. Even when they had 600 you could see 2 regional fighters going at it in the UFC. Now it's twice that bad.

So you can only see the difference when every div has about 20 fighters on the roster. Because what was the top 10 in past years is now the top 15. A small climb from 20 to 15 rank. But the opponent is tough.

Boxing was already an old sport during the Ali days. Meanwhile MMA is still barely 30 years old.