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Why loma isn't considered p4p 1#?

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by BonesWinckleJones, Jun 24, 2020.

  1. Buddy Revell Amazon Prime Unboxing Champion

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    Canelo has a very good resume-- but it's only great if you're of the mind that his wins over GGG and Kovalev were definitive and fair and square. And if that's you, you're in the minority.

    There are no asterisks over any of Loma's victories as there are on Canelo's, which to me makes the difference between the two.

    When it comes to Loma there's no gamesmanship and controversy. Canelo still has third fight with GGG left on the table... why? Because his win and draw over GGG are both in question. This isn't rocket science. Most boxing fans, pundits, fighters, had GGG winning at least one of his two fights against Canelo if not both. It's scandalous that he is 0W-1L-1D against Ginger. Anyone who's seen both fights and is unbiased knows that's not a fair judgement. And furthermore, over 24 rounds they're head to head matchup is unresolved. Neither man has been hurt, buckled, staggered, dropped, much less finished. There's a lot of unfinished business with them, despite what Canelo fanboys might think.

    Lomachenko, by comparison, has convincingly beaten everyone put in-front of him save for Salido in his 2nd, 3rd fight. And he's the smaller man moving up with no catch-weight, rehydration, or time-frame stipulations. He just has beaten guys up fair and square over the last 6 years.
     
  2. aries Silver Belt

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    I'm partially in agreement with you as the first GGG fight result was wrong to me, GGG won that. Canelo beating Kov was a pretty good scalp even though Kov was on the slide because it was at LHW. As for GGG well I think that GGG won the first fight but for me Canelo clearly won the second bout and again he beat him at MW which is 20lbs heavier than when he started his pro career as a LWW. Canelo also beat Daniel Jacobs at MW and that was a good win too. Those are 3 elite names that Canelo has beaten even if I think he lost the first GGG fight. Loma on the other hand has a win against Jorge Linares and who else? Yes he is competing 2 weight classes higher than he should be but Canelo has gone up 6 divisions in weight. I think Loma's win against Rigo was great but Rigo was coming up two weight classes.

    It's not Lomas fault though, he just doesn't have the opponents. Mikey Garcia ran out of the weight class so he wouldn't have to face Loma. I think that would have been a great win for Loma but sadly it looks likely to never happen as Garcia looks to have no interest at all in coming back down to his natural weight. Loma is great but he just doesn't have the opponents. Hopefully he'll fight some of the young bucks I listed earlier and prove his greatness. The Lopez fight should be a showcase fight for Loma, and I look forward to it greatly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
  3. Buddy Revell Amazon Prime Unboxing Champion

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    I hear you. The thing about Loma is that though he doesn't have as many big names as Canelo he's completely dominated the B/B+ to A- guys that he's fought with zero stipulations.

    I don't think Canelo has a win as impressive as Loma's decisive wins over Linares, Walters, or Roman Martinez... i just don't.

    (on a side note: it's a shame that Loma basically retired Walters as it kind of hurts his resume. I think people forget how good he was... he knocked out Nonito, Vic Darchinyan).

    Who's the best fighter Canelo has wiped the floor with Kirkland? Angulo? Amir Khan 2 weight-classes above his best weight?
     
  4. aries Silver Belt

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    Yes the manner in which Loma gets his victories is much more impressive on the whole. No disputing that. He makes fighters look like they don't even belong in the same ring as him. Canelo did a number on Kovalev though who was a much bigger man but someone at the end of their career. It was a good dominant win though.

    But is the fact that Canelo in closer fights also a testament to the level of fighters he is up against? When you are up against other elite operators the wins aren't usually that impressive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
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  5. Codpiece Not afraid to care

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    Is that a great comparison? Rigo is smaller and had to go up to Loma. Canelo went up to fight Fielding, and is hardly considered any kind of signature win for Canelo.

    Both GGG and Linares fight at the weight Loma and Canelo primarily compete at and are each fighters’ best win there (not Loma’s fault Mikey bailed on 135).
     
  6. baconCrunch Brown Belt

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    to be pfp, you not only have to have the past resume
    but also legitimately be on top of your current division, in other words out perform the #2-5 guys.
    if you're not dominant in your own wgt division, how can you be pfp the best?

    canelo's biggest win is GGG, which was extremely close
    lomachenko's current best is luke campbell
    if lomachenko beats teofimo, he should be above canelo
    and if inoue beats casimero, he should be in the same position as lomachenko
     
  7. JayE Red Belt

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    I'm not sure if Campbell would be in the top 5 for Lomachenko's best wins. You can't merely compare divisional dominance with no mind to the quality of the division. Not all top fighters in a division are made equal and, in context, Lomachenko has fought no one near the quality of Golovkin when Canelo faced him.
     
  8. Kovalev's "Man Bag" I don't do titles

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    Pac clearly has the best past résumé. Why isn't he ranked P4P #1 then? It's because the P4P rankings are mainly concerned with your current résumé and not your past résumé. What a fighter did 10 years ago means little to nothing.
     
  9. Buddy Revell Amazon Prime Unboxing Champion

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    Was it now? Loma fought Rigo-- a multiple time gold medalist and world champion-- a guy who most boxing heads had ranked top 10 p4p at the time and gave him an absolute boxing lesson en route to forcing him to quit. Canelo got a contested draw and a contested decision against GGG. I'm not seeing the disparity in quality. And to add, Loma's breaking of Nicholas Walters who was a legit p4p threreat, is a highly impressive destruction of a prime fighter. He basically retired the man.
     
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  10. JayE Red Belt

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    He brought a 37 year old Rigo up 2 weight classes (and Rigo hadn't fought a top guy in nearly 5 years, not that it was his fault). Lomachenko himself doesn't rate that win particularly high, even if it's still impressive in some ways. How much credit did Spence get for completely dominating Garcia, after all (and Garcia had top wins at 140 against a guy who is now top 10 at WW in Lipinets - in fact many ratings had him as the top guy at 140 before the runs of Taylor and Prograis)?
     
  11. Kovalev's "Man Bag" I don't do titles

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    Rigo decided he wanted to challenge Loma for his Super Featherweight WBO title at 130 pounds. Nobody held a gun to his head and forced him to call Loma out and fight him. He'd been campaigning for that fight for a very long time. To help even the field Team Rigo put a 138 pound rehydration clause in the contract and Loma weighed in at 137, which is what you'd expect a normal sized featherweight to weigh on fight night. The weight wouldn't have mattered anyway given that Loma didn't get physical with him and given that Rigondeaux couldn't touch him in the first place. According to Rigondeaux himself the weight was never a factor in the fight.

    As for Spence, he certainly got lots of credit for beating Mikey from both the fans & media. He went from P4P #10 to P4P #5 in The Ring's P4P rankings.

    Pre-Mikey (Spence rated P4P #10)
    https://web.archive.org/web/20190304093606/www.ringtv.com/ratings/
    Post-Mikey (Spence rated P4P #5)
    https://web.archive.org/web/20190401074853/www.ringtv.com/ratings/
     
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  12. JayE Red Belt

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    I'm not blaming Lomachenko for taking the fight, I'm saying it's not some earth-shattering win. If you don't think a two weight class difference (Rigondeaux is now campaigning at 118 pounds as he nears 40) was meaningful, then that's your prerogative, but I'm of the opinion that it's fairly significant in a sport with weight classes.

    If anyone here were to put Spence's win over Garcia on equal (or even comparable) footing to Canelo's win over Golovkin, they'd be justifiably dismissed. One is inarguably better than the other, just as Canelo over Golovkin was far more meaningful than Lomachenko over Rigo.
     
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  13. Seano Hands of bone

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    Look back at how fans reacted to Floyd , Golovkin and Canelo fighting guys coming up 2 classes. They were dismissed as legit wins.
    Lomachenko deserves the same credit those guys got for those wins, which is not much.
     
  14. Kovalev's "Man Bag" I don't do titles

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    Nobody is saying it's some earth shattering win. Clearly though the performance was good enough for Loma to win 2017 Fighter of the Year (coupled with his activity). Donaire is 37 years old and now competing as a Bantamweight again himself. He moved down from Featherweight, two weight classes (only 1 in Rigo's case), to compete in the WBSS which he managed to reach the finals. He's much larger than Rigondeaux and he moved down two weight classes in one jump. By your logic here that also makes Donaire a Bantamweight as it ignores his natural size.
     
  15. JayE Red Belt

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    What? That's precisely what we're arguing. The entire argument we're having is based on the idea that there isn't a disparity in the significance of the two wins (Golovkin as opposed to Rigo). I think there is no question that there is disparity between the two wins.
     
  16. Kovalev's "Man Bag" I don't do titles

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    I never argued there wasn't a disparity though you told another poster that quality was the difference. I disagree completely. Despite being smaller Rigo was the least hit fighter in the sport at the time Loma fought him and also a P4Per. The truth is that both Golovkin and Rigo were past prime and with Golovkin it was starting to look obvious. Golovkin was showing his age in his fight with Brook and against Jacobs who arguably beat him. As far as signature wins go Golovkin has none officially. Who was Golovin's best win before Canelo beat him, Lemieux? Jacobs? Rigo's win over a prime Donaire, who was a much bigger man at that, is a HOF caliber signature win.
     
  17. Corona GOAT

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    He doesn’t take enough clen/Mexico meat
     
  18. aries Silver Belt

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    Spence didn't put Garcia away. Garcia managed to go 12 rounds with a destroyer. Loma meanwhile so utterly dominated Rigo that he quit in the 6th round, not because he was busted up physically as one might expect by the bigger man but that he was completely outboxed and out manouvered. He was outskilled which was so impressive as it was over an opponent so highly skilled as Rigo.
     
  19. JayE Red Belt

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    If we were talking about Rigo circa 2012-2015, sure, his quality at 122 was probably on par with Golovkin at 160. As it stands, Lomachenko was far bigger and Rigo was far removed from facing anyone relevant (Moises Flores, a thoroughly mediocre fighter, was the only rated fighter he had faced since Donaire). I'd suggest that the comment I made heavily implies that Lomachenko doesn't have a win near the quality of Canelo over Golovkin, because he doesn't.
     
  20. JayE Red Belt

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    If we were comparing the two wins, wouldn't one also have to account for the fact that Garcia was also a champion at 140 (in fact, before the recent runs of Taylor and Prograis, he was universally rated #1 at the weight)? I think there is plenty in common between the two wins and I rate them similarly. Obviously neither win reflects poorly on them, but for me they're far from defining wins for top p4p fighters.
     

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