why liddels looping punches work

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by devante, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    Alot of people have bashed chuck's tech and alot of people have questioned how world class fighters are consistently caught and many times koed by a guy who's strikes can be described as sloppy..telegraphed...and wide. Well i am going to give my tech explanation in boxing terms and how it applies to the mma world.

    1) Chuck throws punches that are unconventional, it's not just that he throws a looping shot; it's that he throws them from obscene/angles or positions. Anyone can be prepared for the textbook hook, or overhand right or looping right that comes only when the person throwing it is in position; many times you can check ur opp feet and his body positioning to predict when and where he will punch. Chuck works outside of that realm or striking therefore he is not as easy to read, because he will not wait til the position or angle is perfect (in orthodox terms). Meaning u can't really check him or feint him. Example he will throw huge looping shots that open him up to the clinch or the shoot; but his takedown is such that he can counter, meaning u can't hold him in check w/the fear of being brought down...meaning he can walk u down and tee off on u. Cus he is not afraid of being taken down..an since most people don't realy have good power or strikes, without the fear of takedowns he can pick them apart. Sidenote: Chonan used a good chin and the fear of the takedown/ground work to last w/silva; due to the fact silva was afraid of being put down and/or subbed he picked his shots instead of walking through chonan. As a result chonan had opp to counter and potshot silva..because silva was too respectiful of his groundwork.

    2)Most people don't know how to stay in or out; against someone like chuck u need to stay all the way in or all the way out, if u are in the mid range coming in..chuck will shorten the hook and catch u coming in. (ask randleman) If u are in mid range and pulling out..chuck will extend the hook and catch u going back. (ask busta). Since most mma fighters don't really work striking like they do grappling they are pretty helter skelter and don't have the skills to eff fight in or out, meaning they are in and out of both doing no damage in neither and eventually getting picked off by chuck. The people who beat chuck or really tested him were able to fight inside or out; randy stayed in the pocket and walked chuck down w/a jab before clinching and working the hooks and uppercuts. Tito could have done it to..buit he is scared to get hit and can't commit to being in the middle of the storm. Rampage beat him from the outside and worked his way in..by using combination punching and pressure to open chuck up then take him down and pound him out; now rampage did not out box him, but when at arms length he stepped in and punched his way in keeping a high rate, w/a variety of shots. Mezger did the same thing..stayed on his toes he circled and picked his shots...set them up and mixed shots to the head and body; for most of the fight he did not let chuck apply his pressure and walk him down. He stayed mobile and kept his hands moving...

    3) Most guys are afraid to get hit...u can't eff land on someone if u are soo scared of being hit; that just opens u up more cus u are trying to outhink someone in a realm of fighting u just aren't that good at. I mentioned this to one of the guys on maxfighting and he mentioned it to randy and randy agreed; people stay on their back foot, they can't get any power on their shots and when they do land a)it does not do sh*t and b) they can't follow up cus they would have to overextend (cus they are out of range) and end up missing and being countered. It happened to busta and to babalu. U can't even shoot on chuck as much cus u are on ur back foot, he is hard enough to pull down w/a good shot and dmn near impossible w/a bad telegraphed one of ur back foot. All randy did was stay off his back foot and apply steady pressure..not being scared to be hit/countered... U have to respect the power...be aware of it..not be fearful.

    4) Chuck has a good chin/timing/power; when u have the attributes chuck has u can get away w/some of the flaws...if and when he gets hit he can take it..meaning he keeps coming. An it also makes it easier to counter, once u land i know where u are and what position u are in, if i can take it i can fire right back and catch u; people don't often get koed being def..u always get koed attempting to establish some sort of off. This also goes well w/his power...power changes everything if chuck had mezger's power he would and could not win like he does...he would not be able to hurt people and they would not be afraid to step in and bring it to him.

    these are the four reason i think liddel's strikes work well..they either explain it from his end or from his opp. Let's review.

    Win_ babalu...renato was fighting backing up throwing strikes and looking for the takedown, in stepping back chuck caught him on his back foot hurt him and put him down and then put him out.
    win_ randleman tried to stay inside, when chuck spun off the fence..kevin got caught in between..instead of getting right back in chuck's chest he was in that mid range and koed.
    win_busta..busta was on his back foot all fight long, not able to sit on his shots or follow up w/a combo and was not able to eff work the takedown due to positioning
    win_mezger able to counter mezger when guy gassed and got caught in between trying to move out, instead of staying outside.
    win_belfort able to stay outside and potshot; unable to explode as he usually does due to a fear of chuck's power....was hesitant and thought to much and was on his back foot when he got caught and dropped
    loss_ couture..worked in behind jab, was not afraid to be hit or countered..worked way all the way in clinched kept high/tight guard stayed off back foot.. put chuck on his backfoot
    loss rampage worked from arms length threw combinations and walked in not fearing the ciunter and was able to keep chuck off balance and make him second guess instead of countering or initiating exchanges..kept chuck on his back foot
     
  2. Kamehameha

    Kamehameha Boricua

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    i'll shorten that for ya:

    Chuck could throw punches w/ his eyes closed standing on his head and still strike better than 90% of MMA fighters. For the most part, MMAers are fair strikers/excellent grapplers. Chuck is an excellent striker/good grappler. He does loop his right hand i've seen, but still throws punches fast and crisp, and actually has bad intentions w/ them instead of using them as a set up for a take down as other MMA fighters do.

    he's accurate, crisp, and strong: no wonder he's done so well in MMA w/ his striking abilities.
     
  3. Fzubek

    Fzubek Brown Belt

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    When hes matched up with a decent striker he usually get his ass handed too him. Ala Rampage. And Lidell doesnt have excellent striking either, its rather sloppy. His striking is maybe decent by MMA standards but it wouldnt work in boxing.
     
  4. b0necrusher

    b0necrusher The crusher of bones.

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    Excellent analysis devante. I'd have to agree.
    Plus there's just something about a striker who throws with bad intentions. Most MMA fighters don't. For whatever reason. The ones who do knock people the FUCK out. Chuck, CroCop, hell even Tank. Having a ton of power helps, but most guys are too afraid to open up for fear of getting taken down.
    Chuck and Mirko also have excellent takedown defense, so that puts that extra bit of hesitation in their opponents. Leaving them on the outside just waiting to get picked off.
     
  5. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I wouldn't call Rampage so much of a decent striker. He's just not afraid to take a punch so he'll get in there and throw. But not many people can do that with Chuck because of another point, even when he's not totally squared up, Chuck hits like a mule kicks. I've heard a lot about how solid and stiff his punches actually land despite not looking like much.
     
  6. Fzubek

    Fzubek Brown Belt

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    Rampage is a decent striker, he stood toe to toe with Silva for a long time even dropping him. And by striking I do mean more then punches. And I believe you said it yourself, Rampage wasnt scared to get in there and mix it up with Chuck, he walked in threw his bombs and wasnt scared, and what happened? Chuck got his ass handed to him. Chuck is sloppy, slightly lucky, but definitley powerful.
     
  7. #RAGE#

    #RAGE# Yellow Belt

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    Chuck is the best striker in mma,by far,hands down,guy hits like a mac truck. :icon_evil
     
  8. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I see what you're saying, but I call a decent striker someone whose primary weapon is organised striking. Rampage definitely improved WORLDS between the first fight with Wandy and the second, but I would still class him as primarily a slammer with some basic principals of striking ability on his side. Now I'll straight-out admit bias, being a Boxer and all, but I do just think the main factor was that Rampage wasn't scared of Chuck. Chuck's intimidation factor has a lot to do with everything, and another thing he does consistently is keep his eyes on his opponent, even if they're moving in for takedowns he watches closely. I notice a lot of MMA guys have bad habits of lowering their eyes and more times than not flash KO's result from that. The guy not seeing the punch coming. Chuck watches and knows when to throw in tiny openings, which is how he ended up knocking Tiger out. Off a split-second of noticing Vernon kept coming in blind.

    Hmm, perhaps after the second Wandy fight I'd think of Rampage as a decent striker, in retrospect, it's something I'll have to think about and take to reviewing footage.
     
  9. Vilo Magee

    Vilo Magee Brown Belt Professional Fighter

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    I call it 95% of the other MMA fighters have shitty defense and the other 5% try to trade with a guy who can punch. I mean seriously have you ever seen to many MMA fighters slip a punch, parry, or even skillfully block a punch with something other than their face.

    Chuck has decent power and times people pretty well with decent shots that seem to come out of nowwhere. He has decently quick hands and can combo. He is the best striker in MMA but is that really saying all that much? that is like saying a Vespa is the fastest scooter but when you compare the other scooters to a Vespa you see why real quick
     
  10. Brandon Dukes

    Brandon Dukes Green Belt

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    Chuck is def not the best striker in MMA. Cro Cop, Wandy, Sergei, Hunt, Rampage, and maybe even Shogun. Chuck does have one thing going for him that most fighters don't though, killer instinct. When he has someone hurt he does not lay back and wait he goes in for the kill. The other thing is when guys come in with their hands down, that looping punch lands a lot easier.
     
  11. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    A couple of those guys you mentioned are definitely not better stikers than Chuck if you go by overall ability and understanding of the stand-up game. Chuck has a lot of things going for him, but I think when people are saying "the best striker" they're referring specifically to hands and not so much kicks, otherwise there would be a wider scope of guys better than Chuck of course.
     
  12. Vilo Magee

    Vilo Magee Brown Belt Professional Fighter

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    I was referring to hands only. I think chuck is the best striker in MMA because he knows when to throw a flurry when to jab and when to cover up he also does a decent job of controlling the tempo of a fight because he can counter and attack depending on the moment of the fight.
    One thing I also think Lidell does well is he knows the other fighters in MMA have piss poor standup (which includes their defense) so he knows he can load up on them witht he big loopers. I also think if he fought a guy who he felt had decent defense he would throw straighter punches. He has adaptability which makes him tough to beat.
     
  13. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Yeah, this phenomenon has really interested me lately. I'm looking at a book by Martina Sprague on the physics of fighting (she's a kickboxer). Maybe that will have some insights into why certain punches look soft but land hard: the physical principles behind it.
     
  14. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Yeah, but this is the mystery of Chuck: a mystique I think the starter of this thread was trying to dispel.

    He looks like nothing. His fighting looks like nothing.

    So why does he win?
     
  15. Evilsteez

    Evilsteez Silver Belt

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    HE's not even the best striker in the UFC. Arlovski's striking is better than Chuck's.
     
  16. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Based on what? Not opponents or record, obviously.

    So I'm guessing your approach is theoretical. What about Arlovski's striking is superior?

    I swear, the way people talk about Andrei, it's as though they forgot grappling is his BASE. He was a 2x national sambo champ, for christ's sake.
     
  17. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Just watch a lot of Boxing Bro. You'll see shit that is an absolute mystery that will tell you that some guys just get more lbs of pressure when punching (or some other theory similar) because on one hand you have a guy who is throwing his ass off, throwing crisp clean punches, putting his hips and shoulders into them, and has decent hand-speed, but he couldn't crack and egg...and then you have this other guy who has no real uniform way of throwing punches, but if he taps you on the chin the next thing you know you're staring at a pen light with an icepack on your neck.

    Some guys just have that kind of punching power, and it's usually lanky guys as opposed to muscular guys.
     
  18. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    like i said and kabuki said; alot of these guys are scared to get hit and it is hard to eff strike tech or w/power when u are sooo scared of getting hit that u are not commiting to ur strikes... when u are that scared u pull punches..for fear of missing or being countered...u don't sit on punches so u have no pop... or u become extra hesitant and picky which often makes u def and a target for potshots..big shots..flurries and combos.

    the guys who did best against chuck were not afraid to be hit and as a result were able to land hard and often....i.e. rampage/couture and to an extent noe hernandez and mezger; if u are gonna backpedal and be def then u better have the skills, which most mma guys do not have. So when they start circling and backpedaling they take awy from their standup power and accuracy, not to mention their ability to tie up or shoot w/out being counterd, sprawled due to the dist and them telegraphing their moves...

    u gotta have skillls...but having heart will help u alot more...especially against someone w/chuck's abilities..u can't hit him w/one shot at a time..his chin and power and timing is to good. U either move ur hands and get inside to take away his looping strikes and smother his shots... or u stay outside and keep ur hands moving where u can stay outside of his initial strikes and keep him off balance by catching him between shots, thereby doing damage by using volume and combos and keeping his timing off by keeping a high workrate and throwing a variety of hard shots.
     
  19. Pale1

    Pale1 Blue Belt

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    I love watchig Chuck strike, especially when he connects with that first one you can see a change in his face and WHAM here comes the flurry, look at his match with Tito at the end, even with Vernon as he shoots in and his last fight with Randy, he turns into an angry, ugly, half bald bad dude.
     
  20. ILLmakeUtap

    ILLmakeUtap Guest

    yea its a lot easier to block a boxing glove than it is a "mma glove" ;x
     

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