why isnt the muay thai pushkick/teep used

[AndyMaBobs]

I think I might be the only one sceptical about Saki's chances as far as striking goes in MMA.

He's definitely miles above everyone in that division in terms of pure striking ability and experience. But I think the smaller gloves, the range difference, the threat of grappling and even the calibre of athleticism in the UFC will be issues that he will have to adapt to and overcome. Whether he is able to from the get go - I'm not sure. But I think it has to be said that just because he's a great kick boxer that doesn't necessarily mean that it will translate as successfully over to mma for the reasons above. I mean look at Overeem & Hunt - arguably the most experienced kick boxers in the ufc - both of whom have been in situations where opponents with less striking experience got the better of them in the striking department.

At the moment I feel like the light heavyweight division is the least stacked - I mean compare the light heavyweight division to the middleweight or welterweight division - which are stacked with killers. In comparison the light heavyweight division I feel is the weakest it's ever been - so it is an opportune time for Saki. I wouldn't be surprised if that factored into his decision.

I think though it will depend on how well he picks up the MMA game, a lot of kick boxers (outside of the women's division) haven't done so well - the track record is good against lower tier fighters but that's as far as most kick boxers who've crossed have got. I can only think of Mark Hunt but he's been at the MMA game for a long long time.

It also depends on whether the UFC will hand pick fighters and try to nurture his career - but the track record for that isn't great unless you're like Conor and you can sell seats (then you can choose your fights lol). I feel like they may throw him a fighter he can be competitive with or beat but then toss him in against someone who he won't be ready for.

Saki in the UFC will definitely be entertaining though - just for the spectacle it is.

I feel the same way about Saki.

It's weird though, that the light heavyweight division at one time was the most stacked division around... and now it seems barren.

 

[j123]

I think I might be the only one sceptical about Saki's chances as far as striking goes in MMA.

He's definitely miles above everyone in that division in terms of pure striking ability and experience. But I think the smaller gloves, the range difference, the threat of grappling and even the calibre of athleticism in the UFC will be issues that he will have to adapt to and overcome. Whether he is able to from the get go - I'm not sure. But I think it has to be said that just because he's a great kick boxer that doesn't necessarily mean that it will translate as successfully over to mma for the reasons above. I mean look at Overeem & Hunt - arguably the most experienced kick boxers in the ufc - both of whom have been in situations where opponents with less striking experience got the better of them in the striking department.

At the moment I feel like the light heavyweight division is the least stacked - I mean compare the light heavyweight division to the middleweight or welterweight division - which are stacked with killers. In comparison the light heavyweight division I feel is the weakest it's ever been - so it is an opportune time for Saki. I wouldn't be surprised if that factored into his decision.

I think though it will depend on how well he picks up the MMA game, a lot of kick boxers (outside of the women's division) haven't done so well - the track record is good against lower tier fighters but that's as far as most kick boxers who've crossed have got. I can only think of Mark Hunt but he's been at the MMA game for a long long time.

It also depends on whether the UFC will hand pick fighters and try to nurture his career - but the track record for that isn't great unless you're like Conor and you can sell seats (then you can choose your fights lol). I feel like they may throw him a fighter he can be competitive with or beat but then toss him in against someone who he won't be ready for.

Saki in the UFC will definitely be entertaining though - just for the spectacle it is.

Its the little bits that really make a difference. I remember my first time coming back to MMA sparring after spending about 2 years in pure MT/striking comps, it was baffling. I was nervous to let my hands go and couldn't throw my usual flurries, it was like day 1 j123 all over again. Took me a bit to over it. Then there was my stance being too upright and getting put on my back frequently.

Usually when there's a high level guy from another pure disciple either they get fed to the wolves or a "can" if they feel they're profitable material. For some reason BJJ cats that come over don't get fed to the wolves compared to strikers.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Its the little bits that really make a difference. I remember my first time coming back to MMA sparring after spending about 2 years in pure MT/striking comps, it was baffling. I was nervous to let my hands go and couldn't throw my usual flurries, it was like day 1 j123 all over again. Took me a bit to over it. Then there was my stance being too upright and getting put on my back frequently.

Usually when there's a high level guy from another pure disciple either they get fed to the wolves or a "can" if they feel they're profitable material. For some reason BJJ cats that come over don't get fed to the wolves compared to strikers.

I think it's because BJJ guys are generally very boring when they first start fighting MMA because their striking sucks and their TDs usually aren't that great either. So they get put on the FightPass prelims whereas someone like Saki will probably be the last fight on the prelims before a big card or co-main on an FS1 show in his first fight, because they know he'll be exciting one way or another.

 

[Azam]

Almost everything depends on who they match him with. Also how seriously he takes all this. Is it just a money grab and he's not serious about becoming a respectable all around MMA fighter? Then he'll lose badly the first time they put him in with anyone with a modicum of wrestling ability. If he takes it seriously then in a few years (though he's not young, so that plays in as well) he might be a legit top 5 guy given that as you correctly point out the division is very weak.

As for whether he'll transition well, I tend to like his chances better than someone like Raymond Daniels or even some KBers who are better than him on paper, like Petrosyan for example. Reason being, his boxing heavy attack doesn't leave him terribly open to takedowns, and the fact that he likes to come forward will make it a little easier for him to stay off the fence which is definitely a place where good strikers get caught up. I don't know that the glove size will matter all that much; in any case, I'm really excited to see him fight. He'll be the highest level striker to come into MMA since probably CroCop or Hunt.

I'm not sure if he could be a top 5 guy even if he takes it seriously for a few years and brushes up on his grappling. Like you said he isn't young (in terms of combat sports). He is also starting from a blank slate in terms of grappling experience and even with years of serious training will still lack in that area compared to others who already have a significant grappling pedigree/experience.

Not to say he can't be a top 5 guy - but it's not impossible. Like you said it depends on whether he's going to seriously give this a go & stick with it even if he loses a few times - like Mark Hunt (who I'm a fan of - the guy stuck through it and look at him now) - because I feel that's what it will take - getting experience & coming to terms with a long learning curve and that while that curve is ongoing you may have some setbacks. I think his chances would be a hell of a lot better if he focused on defensive wrestling (keeping on his feet) and learning to fight off his back with the bjj instead of focusing so much on top control.

I was from a pure striking background and like @j123 mentioned striking changes significantly when you add grappling - it's only slight changes but they make a drastic impact on the way you strike and it takes getting use to. In regards to Saki - he will have to unlearn a good amount of habits that are great for kickboxing but no great for mma. Like you said he'll have a easier time than most other kick boxers because of his boxing heavy attacks.

Glove size does play a factor - for example if you're someone who is like Robin Van Roosmalen who has a tendency to shell up or glue his gloves to his face when defending from attacks (in his case very very often) - you will have serious problems doing that in 4oz (it's even something that Saki does but nowhere near as much) - you see a lot of it in kickboxing not so much MT. It's not so much an issue when your attacking but more of an issue with defending especially when punches can slip through your guard (more so than you'd find in kickboxing).

It will be entertaining to see him go at it. I agree I think he's the best caliber kick boxer since Hunt to transition.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I'm not sure if he could be a top 5 guy even if he takes it seriously for a few years and brushes up on his grappling. Like you said he isn't young (in terms of combat sports). He is also starting from a blank slate in terms of grappling experience and even with years of serious training will still lack in that area compared to others who already have a significant grappling pedigree/experience.

Not to say he can't be a top 5 guy - but it's not impossible. Like you said it depends on whether he's going to seriously give this a go & stick with it even if he loses a few times - like Mark Hunt (who I'm a fan of - the guy stuck through it and look at him now) - because I feel that's what it will take - getting experience & coming to terms with a long learning curve and that while that curve is ongoing you may have some setbacks. I think his chances would be a hell of a lot better if he focused on defensive wrestling (keeping on his feet) and learning to fight off his back with the bjj instead of focusing so much on top control.

I was from a pure striking background and like @j123 mentioned striking changes significantly when you add grappling - it's only slight changes but they make a drastic impact on the way you strike and it takes getting use to. In regards to Saki - he will have to unlearn a good amount of habits that are great for kickboxing but no great for mma. Like you said he'll have a easier time than most other kick boxers because of his boxing heavy attacks.

Glove size does play a factor - for example if you're someone who is like Robin Van Roosmalen who has a tendency to shell up or glue his gloves to his face when defending from attacks (in his case very very often) - you will have serious problems doing that in 4oz (it's even something that Saki does but nowhere near as much) - you see a lot of it in kickboxing not so much MT. It's not so much an issue when your attacking but more of an issue with defending especially when punches can slip through your guard (more so than you'd find in kickboxing).

It will be entertaining to see him go at it. I agree I think he's the best caliber kick boxer since Hunt to transition.

Yeah, I agree with all that. Definitely no guarantees on how a guy making the transition late career like that does, not matter how good a striker he is. It'll be interesting to see if the small gloves are more of a help of hindrance to him. As kind of a power hooking boxer type KBer it'll definitely make it easier to get his shots in, but like you said for guys who rely on that tight high guard it's a major change (Nieky Holzken also comes to mind as a badass kick boxer who would probably struggle more than you'd expect defensively in MMA). I haven't looked into where he's doing his MMA training, but you're definitely right than defensive wrestling and getting back to his feet need to be his grappling focus.

 

[Paradigm]

Yeah, I agree with all that. Definitely no guarantees on how a guy making the transition late career like that does, not matter how good a striker he is. It'll be interesting to see if the small gloves are more of a help of hindrance to him. As kind of a power hooking boxer type KBer it'll definitely make it easier to get his shots in, but like you said for guys who rely on that tight high guard it's a major change (Nieky Holzken also comes to mind as a badass kick boxer who would probably struggle more than you'd expect defensively in MMA). I haven't looked into where he's doing his MMA training, but you're definitely right than defensive wrestling and getting back to his feet need to be his grappling focus.

As far as I've heard, he's training in Dubai but also said that wrestling is naturally in the blood of Turkish people so who knows?

 

[Superhet]

Relying on blocking punches rather than moving as your defense in mma is problematic even if you can actually defend them in the small gloves. Your opponent isn't just consigned to trying to punch more at you, like in kickboxing. They can grapple you, or feint a grappling attempt and strike you when you panic to stop it because you're "a striker" - and they can do so much more effectively than a thaiboxer could hope to because the gloves allow you to grab with your fingers and don't get in the way anywhere near as much.

 

[Uchi Mata]

As far as I've heard, he's training in Dubai but also said that wrestling is naturally in the blood of Turkish people so who knows?

So you're saying he's going to get oiled up and reach down someone's pants?

I'm okay with that.

 

[Azam]

^^
I find that genuinely disturbing.

 

[98bird]

There are a decent amount of Teeps in MMA. It's not that easy to catch them.

People catch teeps for sweeps in Muay Thai also, and they're usually better at it than MMA fighters, especially the grapplers/wrestlers.

But the stance in MMA is a little lower and more movement....usually due to takedowns. Whil in MT, it's a taller, upright stance and more static; making it easier to teep faster & more effectively.

 

[Superhet]

But the stance in MMA is a little lower and more movement....usually due to takedowns. Whil in MT, it's a taller, upright stance and more static; making it easier to teep faster & more effectively.

This

Grappling, small gloves and an arena that is both circular and not tiny = striking game changes. You try hitting teeps consistently on someone who has a solid base and solid movement, just landing one is hard, and unlike a jab you have to compromise your balance to throw a kick.

 

[j123]

^^
I find that genuinely disturbing.

Just let him bang bro

 

[SummerStriker]

There were a lot of front snap kicks and teeps tonight.

 

[Bekim]

This

Grappling, small gloves and an arena that is both circular and not tiny = striking game changes. You try hitting teeps consistently on someone who has a solid base and solid movement, just landing one is hard, and unlike a jab you have to compromise your balance to throw a kick.

You don't need to compromise your balance with a teep...........it's one of the better kicks for not compromising your balance, if you can throw the properly........which does not happen in a MMA match much.........

 

[SummerStriker]

You don't need to compromise your balance with a teep...........it's one of the better kicks for not compromising your balance, if you can throw the properly........which does not happen in a MMA match much.........

If you push with your foot, there is going to be an equal and opposite reaction, so you will get thrown back if you don't lean into it. If you lean into it and miss, then you will fall forward.

 

[Bekim]

If you push with your foot, there is going to be an equal and opposite reaction, so you will get thrown back if you don't lean into it. If you lean into it and miss, then you will fall forward.

Lol are you kidding me, if you cannot throw a teep without falling forward when you miss, what the hell..........

 

[Pied Piper]

Biggest problem I see with front kicks, and I used to do this, is chambering the leg like a Karate front kick. Remember, in Muay Thai and (effective) kick boxing, the idea is to use the power of your hips; not your quadricep. In Muay Thai sparring, I like to use the teep a lot, but the only time I land it is when I properly do it; that is, not chambering the leg and using the power of my hips. It's much faster and harder to see coming.

Primarily, I'd use it in MMA as a defensive move. And it can only be used once in a while. When you start throwing a lot of them, that's when you get in trouble. But really, his momentum coming towards you, plus the momentum of your front leg teep, aimed towards the solar plexus, will really catch him off guard. Good Thai boxers and kickboxers will catch you with these out of nowhere.

I'll just list some good ideas for the teep. I'm not a MT expert, but I love to spar, and I still like to study Muay Thai a lot. Try these out in sparring and let me know what works.

-Fake a roundhouse kick, as you bring the leg around, switch off to a rear leg teep kick. Got this from Bas Rutten. He used it a lot in Pancrase with a high percentage of success.

-Aim teeps to the solar plexus/diaphragm (the pocket under the sternum). I got caught with one of these lightly; it is not fun. Saw Sem Schilt KO a guy with a front snap kick to the solar plexus; a teep will do just as much damage IMO

-Aim teeps to the legs. Especially around the knees. When both of his feet are on the ground, use your heels instead of the ball of your foot, and aim them above the knees. Not a KO move, but can be as upsetting as a good roundhouse kick to the sciatic nerve.

-Aim teeps to the chest. Bas would do this sometimes. If you hit him high on the chest hard enough, you'll throw him off balance. If you're fighting in a ring, do it near the ropes, and he'll fly into them. Be careful though; good Thai boxers will bounce off the ropes and use their momentum to retaliate with an elbow or a punch. It might be good to do this one in the corner instead.

-Aim teeps to the face. Very difficult, but I've seen Ramon Dekkers do this. This is a dangerous one; dangerous to the kicker moreso than the receiving end. It's so easy to miss, and end up with your leg on his shoulder. Not a good position. Wait until he starts approaching you, and aim a good teep to the face. Believe me, if you land it right, this will really upset and distract him.

-Use the teep when he attacks. This is my favorite way to use it. When he's totally committed to an attack, his mind isn't on catching your leg. And think about it. In Muay Thai, the teep is your longest weapon. No weapon he has; punches, round kicks, elbows, knees, or clinching, can reach you if he's at the end of your teep. And other than the jab, every attack in boxing and kickboxing temporarily throws you out of balance (that's why the jab is used more than any other punch; it doesn't compromise your weight distribution). So when you throw the teep in the middle of the attack, he's already off balance, and now he's probably going to hit the floor. When he throws a punch or long knee, teep kick him to the solar plexus. A hard teep there will really upset him, and if you're quick, you can follow up with a combination while he's distracted. When he throws a round kick, this is, IMO, the absolute best time to use the teep. Kick him to the solar plexus or chest to send him flying backwards. You can kick the leg that he's kicking with, and it will check his kick (meaning it will stop it). You can also kick the pivoting leg, which is not a bad idea.

-Use the teep as a "foot jab." This is kind of a dangerous one in MMA; you don't see it a lot. If you get predictable, your leg will get caught. But it can serve as a good distraction. A good combination is a front leg teep-long right knee-pivot step-right straight.

You just need to set it up properly. And my suggestion: if you're using it in an actual fight, don't dick around with it. Why would you ever throw a half-assed strike? With proper conditioning, you should be able to throw strikes at least 90% power, with some 100% flurries. Half-assed strikes are the ones that get caught or countered. So when you throw the teep, be serious about it. Really drive your hips and try to pierce through the target. I learned through some San Shou that the proper way to catch a thrusting kick is to step out the side first. I rarely see people do this when they catch a teep. If you throw it hard, and he's sloppy with the catch, you can still connect.

And hey; since when does having your leg caught mean you're going to get taken down? If your leg gets caught when you teep, or roundhouse, here are some good options.

-Immediately wind up and throw bombs at his face. The proper way to catch a kick is to immediately, or simultaneously punch and/or throw him off balance. In a fight, your opponent won't always remember this. If he even offers you an inch of his face, or a fraction of a second before he follows up with a takedown or a punch, unload on him. Don't let the guy even put his head up.

-After doing the above, or if he hasn't taken you down yet, grab onto his head, and flying knee to the face or chest. He's holding on to your leg, so even if you aren't the most athletic person in the world, trust me, you'll be able to get high enough off of the ground.

-Downward elbow strike to the collarbone. Yeah. I know. Probably illegal in most competitions. Technically it would be legal in Pride, wouldn't it? UFC says no dowward elbows, but Pride only says no elbows to the head, if I'm not mistaken. And if you compete in Thai boxing, in some places, elbows are legal. Collarbones break easy guys. If you break his collarbone, the arm on that side is pretty much useless. And with only one arm he's pretty screwed.

-Underhook the arm that he has your leg with (if he has your right leg with his left arm, then underhook his left arm with your right arm), and get really close. Push up with your underhook, and push down with your leg. Good way to break his grip.

-Jump roundhouse to the head. I have never seen this, and never done it, but it's just an idea that I have. It most likely will not be a KO shot. But it will be a big distraction, and if done hard enough, it should be enough to get him to let go of your leg. Just jump up, twist your body around, and try to hit him in the head with your leg. Get ready to hit the ground and get up as fast as possible.

The trick is, when he has your leg, that he only has power over your leg if he's grabbing the ankle or close to it. The closer he is to your knee or butt, the more power you have. So if he caught the kick properly, and he has your ankle or heel, just get really close to him, and slide your leg deeper. If you can get his hand to right above the pit of your knee, trust me, he will have no power. And if you use the underhook trick in tandem with that; he'd have to be Mariusz Pudzianowski to be able to keep holding on to your leg.

Hope this helped anyone who was having trouble with the teep. It's a good kick, but it just has to be thrown rarely, and when it is thrown, with good timing and power.

Holy fuck tl;dr

 

[SummerStriker]

Lol are you kidding me, if you cannot throw a teep without falling forward when you miss, what the hell..........

A picture is worth a thousand words. Can you show me a video from a Muay Thai fight of someone throwing a teep, missing completely, and not being off balanced forward?

I don't understand how you push with your foot, without leaning into it with your weight, and without being pushed back.

 

[Paradigm]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Can you show me a video from a Muay Thai fight of someone throwing a teep, missing completely, and not being off balanced forward?

I don't understand how you push with your foot, without leaning into it with your weight, and without being pushed back.

Not every teep is an offensive one.

 

[Bekim]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Can you show me a video from a Muay Thai fight of someone throwing a teep, missing completely, and not being off balanced forward?

I don't understand how you push with your foot, without leaning into it with your weight, and without being pushed back.

Let me have a look on YouTube and I will find you one, regarding

A picture is worth a thousand words. Can you show me a video from a Muay Thai fight of someone throwing a teep, missing completely, and not being off balanced forward?

I don't understand how you push with your foot, without leaning into it with your weight, and without being pushed back.

If I have to dig through YouTube to find some I will.

You don't push your weight forward it should stay on your back foot. The push should come from your leg and then extended via your hip in a driving motion, very much like a good knee, it's driven via the hip. If they try to push forward it's the back foot that is already posted with most of your weight that helps stop them pushing you on your arse, there are weight classes in Muay Thai for a reason, 220lb guy just walks through the 130lb guys teep.

When I used to pad hold for people that fought I would use a slight turning motion so they would teep the belly pad and there foot would slid off to the side. I would either punish them by a tap to there head with what ever I was holding (focus pad or Thai pad) or they would have to drive their teeping foot down between my arm and body to land into a clinch.

They soon learned not to over extend their teep, if you need to bridge the gap, hop and teep.

Landing forward from a teep puts you straight into KO land from elbow or right cross.

This is the way I was shown, if you was shown another way and it works for you then I am not against it. I am here to learn and advacate that if it works for you and you are successful with it then carry on using it.