Why is Tachiwaza/Takedowns neglected in BJJ?

[judogido]

Right now BJJ is losing respect in MMA, the sport it once dominated.

Wrong

Nowadays it just takes a good wrestler with a good base on top to defeat bjj.

Wrong.

I have learned that BJJ is a complete fighting system

Wrong


BJJ is not "losing respect in MMA" - pretty much every fighter cross-trains in BJJ, it is not a "complete fighting system" but a grappling style focused on ground and it takes more than "just" a good wrestler to "defeat BJJ".

Hey - if it bothers you go do BJJ and judo together.

 

[lechien]

not hatin, i love bjj, i train bjj, but just so many weak performances by bjj in mma recently, with the most recent being nick vs noons and galvao vs woodley, diaz was mostly on his knees trying to hold onto an ankle, ill say he did not look to good in that win and i expect better from bjj fighters

So please name the BJJ fighters that you think were/are good in MMA which met/meet your criterias.

 

[[Tycho?]]

Losing respect in MMA? Silva just pulled out a crazy win vs Sonnen, a wrestler. The greatest HW of all time suffered his first and so far only real loss to a BJJ guy. Brock Lesnar, Anderson Silva and GSP, 3 champs and 3 of the best fighters in the world have losses to submission, and little elst.

BJJ is not losing respect in MMA, and if it is, those people are stupid. It's as effective as it ever was, even (especially) at the very top of the sport.

 

[Knuckles69]

MMA is starting to reach a point where being highly athletic is a fundamental requirement. Not long ago someone could be less than an elite athlete and still be somewhat successful in MMA. Those days are over.

To be a top collegiate or Olympic level wrestler you have to be an elite athlete. In a sport (MMA) where skills are starting to become similar the better athlete will generally win. In the UFC the largest pool of elite athletes to draw from is the pool of wrestlers. Give an elite athlete with previous combat training (wrestling) a crash course in submission defense and they'll do pretty well against someone that is either 1) Less athletic 2) Playing on the bottom or 3) Unable to take them down.

I think it's just the way that MMA is evolving. BJJ and submissions will always be a part of the equation but athletic ability will start becoming the larger issue. The style that can consistently deliver the best athletes will have the illusion of dominance but it's not really the style that dominates but the superior athletes that are proficient in that style.

 

[elbigsam]

I really subscribe to the btt mindset for prepping mma fighters. My coach and his coach both believe in establishing a specialty, then building proficiency around that. They both also believe in haveing a good takedown game. Personally I consider standing takedowns to be one of the strongest parts of my game.

I know way more "mma" guys that aren't above a blue belt in bjj than I do that actually have a well developed game on the ground.

The bottom line is that it is plain hard to work the guard in a nogi situation against a guy that has an idea of how to defend.

I recently competed in a nogi event where I considered pulling guard, I consider my guard game to be very well developed. A few days before the event I was rolling with a couple white and blue belts that I train with, it occured to me that it was just hard to pull subs, even tho I'm much more advanced.

 

[YeahBee]

there aren't any repercussions for pulling guard in competition. if it was made a penalty then it might encourage more people to practice takedowns.

that you have to work from your back is penalty enough

that the other guy gets to work from top is reward enough

 

[CyberFreq]

The real reason why people who are primarily BJJers (those who compete in ADCC, Mundials, Pans, etc) rarely go for the TD is because you only get two points total for the takedown and puts you in a position where you could only get as far as top guard, whereas pulling guard gives you the option to sweep, submit, or stand up if you choose. If you got points for takedowns right into side control or were penalized (pointswise) for pulling guard (ADCC rules, I think) there would be more takedowns as opposed to pulling guard.

Those BJJers who train for MMA, though, will usually at least try to learn a decent single or clinch trip to get the fight down. I can't remember (outside of Aoki) an MMA BJJer who actually did nothing but pull guard to get the fight to the ground.

 

[Lutador011]

On the takedown part.

As the above post says takedowns get you only 2 points. There is a huge reward to risk ratio with takedowns in bjj comps.

Fighting clinch (the first part of the takedown) can be extremly taxing on the body, not to mention your grip burns out, or the injury possibility.

Sometimes even if you execute a perfect hip throw, and the guy falls directly to his back (ippon in judo which wins the match) the momentum can help him pull you with him, turn and land in mount. I've seen this happen several times, good throw - tori lands in horrid position. So even a perfect takedown can not guarantee you will land in top position or get points at all.

The stance in bjj is very low, your knees are bent, and your butt/hips are low and far away from your opponent making hip throws and reaps very hard. This is also the reason why single and double legs are preferred takedowns in bjj (now illegal in judo).

I love cool takedowns but in bjj the risk of landing in bad position and the unorthodox stance rely discourage td's

 

[Doctor Venture]

On the takedown part.

As the above post says takedowns get you only 2 points. There is a huge reward to risk ratio with takedowns in bjj comps.

Fighting clinch (the first part of the takedown) can be extremly taxing on the body, not to mention your grip burns out, or the injury possibility.

Sometimes even if you execute a perfect hip throw, and the guy falls directly to his back (ippon in judo which wins the match) the momentum can help him pull you with him, turn and land in mount. I've seen this happen several times, good throw - tori lands in horrid position. So even a perfect takedown can not guarantee you will land in top position or get points at all.

The stance in bjj is very low, your knees are bent, and your butt/hips are low and far away from your opponent making hip throws and reaps very hard. This is also the reason why single and double legs are preferred takedowns in bjj (now illegal in judo).

I love cool takedowns but in bjj the risk of landing in bad position and the unorthodox stance rely discourage td's

It's not a perfect hip throw if you wind up mounted.

 

[Lutador011]

It's not a perfect hip throw if you wind up mounted.

Touche

 

[dza76wutang]

I'm shaking my head here...
1.) Athleticism matters, world champion BJJ artists are great athletes but the best combat athletes are coming up in wrestling in the USA.

2.) Everyone does BJJ now, there are no more opportunities for a Royce Gracie vs Random Redneck Karate Guy.

3.) It is easier to defend than to attack (I believe Saulo Ribeiro said this, I'm sure it's been restated but if Saulo says it, trust it) and it's even easier to defend in a no gi situation with gloves/tape reducing hand dexterity.

4.) MMA scoring favors top-game and unless you have 100% certainty that you'll sweep or sub, you probably should avoid being the bottom guy. Since defense is easier than offense, there's no gi to work with, and the top guy can punch or pin the odds of someone having that 100% certainty are not very high.

5.) In sport BJJ there is no serious penalty to working from the bottom. A sweep from guard into mount is worth 4 points IIRC, a take down into mount is also worth 4 points IIRC. Since we spend countless hours starting from the ground, and there's no "bonus" to taking someone down, why emphasize something when you have pretty much the same expected value from pulling guard or even butt-scooting. It's also less injurious and more space efficient to spend all your training time on the ground.

6.) Even if they start to penalize for guard pulling/butt scooting the sport itself rewards ground grappling, so the hours of practice and R&D will be spent there.

7.) I'm pretty sure UFC's scoring system favors wrestlers, so it seems that 1-dimensional wrestlers are dominant when really they just come with a skillset that works nicely in the UFC's scoring system. They get to double dip on points for take downs (take down itself + octagon control) and are protected from knees and kicks if a take down fails, so they can reshoot/body drag/etc, and they are protected from upkicks from guard when they posture up to G&P. This isn't me boohooing, as my opinion is that if you walk into the octagon you better be able to do it all, it's an assessment of how I think the UFC favors wrestlers, which makes them appear more dominant than they truly are.

 

[Auspex]

It's not a perfect hip throw if you wind up mounted.

Wrong.

I certainly wish you were right, but tournament ippon standards are sometimes a joke. As long as uke falls mostly on his back then they are giving ippon.

Sadly, lotsa folks overthrow, get the guy to land on his back, and roll over them. This type of action ONLY works in Judo comps per the ground limitations, but in any other venue tori would get his two points and be rolled right into mount.

 

[Auspex]

Was recently at a submission only tournament here in Boise - I had 1 of my Judo guys playing and he was getting fairly aggressive in the clinch. Even though I love tachi-waza, I told him to quit working so hard to get the takedown as it counted for nothing but position.

And, unless you're seasoned, you don't know what kind of position you'll end up in after a throw. Control is a difficult thing to develop.

Even though I'll go for throws just because I like to, I recommended to the rest to pull guard, or to look for a sweep while he's taking you down.

No need to burn yourself out standing up, and most guys like to work from their back anyway

 

[Rod1]

Wrong.

I certainly wish you were right, but tournament ippon standards are sometimes a joke. As long as uke falls mostly on his back then they are giving ippon.

Sadly, lotsa folks overthrow, get the guy to land on his back, and roll over them. This type of action ONLY works in Judo comps per the ground limitations, but in any other venue tori would get his two points and be rolled right into mount.

Its idiotic to compare rules of one sport to the rules of other, overolling happens in judo because a perfect throw ends the match, if it didn't it wouldn't happen.

 

[Shemhazai]

I think one of the biggest factors is the fact that most BJJ fighters' stance negates 90 % of all takedowns. Combine that with the practicality of guard pulling in a rules format that does nothing to discourage it, and the answer is quite obvious.

 

[MUFC]

I must have read at least 10 similar threads in the last 2 months. =/

 

[Carrera26]

I think one of the biggest factors is the fact that most BJJ fighters' stance negates 90 % of all takedowns. Combine that with the practicality of guard pulling in a rules format that does nothing to discourage it, and the answer is quite obvious.

I'm sorry to say that you are very, very wrong there. It somewhat reduces the number of Judo techniques that will be effective, but makes what's left FAR easier to pull off. If just bending over negated 90% of Judo, you would see Judokas standing like wrestlers and not upright. At Judo night at the local BJJ gym, you will see those same throws (Tomoe Nage, Suki Nage, Hikikomi Gaeshi, Uchi Mata, and drop Seoi Nage) over and over until the instructors literally become bored with doing the same thing 50x a night and try different throws just to spice things up. Not only that, but the main throws you do against an opponent with a low stance have the BEST chance to land you right into mount, preferably with arm control.

 

[Auspex]

Its idiotic...

Been referred to as worse. That all you got?

 

[redaxe]

oh FFS enough threads about this already

 

[crackbaby420**]

So please name the BJJ fighters that you think were/are good in MMA which met/meet your criterias.

I made this thread because I feel my learning techniques from the feet is coming along alot slower than me learning techniques from the ground because bjj training is like 80/20 ground to standup. Plus, there has been too many times I have watched a BJJ fighter get his ass whooped because they were doing whitebelt shit like not setting up takedowns and then just getting kneed or taking an uppercut to the dome.

I don't have criteria but if I had to say what I thought was good jiu jitsu on display in a fight, it would be a fighter being able to display proper timing in executing techniques, not just shooting in at any ol' random time to just get kneed. Using connections to his opponent to maintain control or neutralize strikes. The ability to always be switching differnet directions so they r never really struggling against someones resistance. Also knowing how to position themself in any situation to keep themself from harm, which could include staying out of a persons striking range until it is appropriate to engage.

To answer your question though, I thought shogun displayed good jiu jitsu in his win against machida. He used his half guard everytime to take Machida off base and get back to his feet, that was impressive.

Am I wrong to think a BJJ Blackbelt should be able to hang with good wrestlers and judoka in taking the fight to the ground?