Why is Tachiwaza/Takedowns neglected in BJJ?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by crackbaby420**, Oct 12, 2010.

  1. crackbaby420**

    crackbaby420** Yellow Belt

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    I am more specifically referring to BJJ in a vale tudo/self defense/mma situation.

    Do BJJ academies neglect standup in order to become more proficient in ground work or is it more of a business decision, meaning, does it have to do with keeping students from getting injured which keeps money rolling in?

    Right now BJJ is losing respect in MMA, the sport it once dominated. Nowadays it just takes a good wrestler with a good base on top to defeat bjj. I have learned that BJJ is a complete fighting system but it doesn't seem to be true when you see these great BJJ blackbelts with weak clinch and takedown games.

    Is BJJ too sport oriented nowadays. I was always intrigued by BJJ because of it's ability to defeat other fighting styles but it seems to be going the way of Judo where rules within a sport are making it lose its true essence.

    I could just be rambling but you all know that BJJ fighters have weaker takedowns than other grappling arts like judo, wrestling, sambo, etc.

    Thoughts? Opinions? Flame?
     
  2. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    I'll get to more later but BJJ isn't losing respect in MMA, whatever that means.

    No flaming, just being honest.
     
  3. boboplata***

    boboplata*** Banned Banned

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    it hurts. you can't tap when your head's about to hit the floor because you can't do proper breakfall.
     
  4. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    What is the problem with all these guys that watch a bit of MMA and start thinking they know everything about BJJ?

    Do I make judgement on Judo based on sexy ayama performance in the UFC? WTF!
     
  5. Ninjamurf

    Ninjamurf Handing out lollipops for over 3 decades

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    And why does boxing ignore leg kicks? Because it's not a basic premise of the sport. BJJ is ground oriented. Limited take downs and take down defense are taught, yes, but the basic premise is what happens AFTER it hits the ground.

    And it takes much more than a "wrassler" to beat a BJJ guy. It takes a "wrassler" with an INTIMATE knowledge of BJJ. That's why it's called MIXED martial arts. Royce already proved what a BJJ guy can do to pure wrestlers. But if you give those wrestlers some training in BJJ they become much more dangerous. So yeah, BJJ isn't "losing respect" in MMA. It is, in fact, one of THE basic arts that MUST be learned if you want to become a well rounded mixed martial artist today.
     
  6. BigCP84**

    BigCP84** There are no absolutes!

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    I think there are a few things going on... I know at my local if not all comps you are not allowed to slam your opponent. I am not sure if a throw would be considered a slam. At my gym we do learn "throws and break falls", at least once a month.

    My fav is the over the shoulder standing throw, but we do all BJJ throws and single leg and double leg TDs too. If slams were legal I would be the Matt Huges of BJJ (lol), because I am big and strong and there isnt anyone at my gym that I cant pick up.

    So I would say some teachers dont even bother teaching them since slamming isnt allowed in most\all Comps.
     
  7. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    If anything BJJ guys should pull guard more, Look at Diaz, a couple of failed attempts and he tries to outbox a pro boxer, luckily it went his way this time but he would have had a better chance of finishing even from guard IMO

    Galvao, good takedowns for a BJJ guy but who are you kidding? fake a shot and try to wrap up instead

    Same with BJ Penn

    it happens all the time, BJJ guys should have more faith in their guard, sure you might risk getting Fitched(which I see as a valid strategy) but atleast it is something else then continuing to fight a losing battle in one realm. If you know you will be taken down, then pull guard to work from the best possible (bad) position


    It all goes in waves, BJJ/Royce dominated, then the wrestlers, then the strikers with TDD then wrestlers again so BJJ guard next again

    No style will ever be the ultimate

    I don't personally pull guard but that is only because I think(fool myself) that I have the advantage standing up, that might change or I might face a guy I know will take me down given the chance,I did willingly go to my back in my last match because I went for a guilliotine and then worked a kimura(which I have faith in)
     
  8. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    just for the record that is completely wrong

    judo throws have an arc to them so not slams

    greco roman throws have an arc to them, even suplex are legal IIRC

    a slam you kinda need to modify the techniques to turn it into slams
     
  9. dazed863

    dazed863 Blue Belt

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    clearly a troll job..

    name of the game isn't wrestling per se...

    it's cross training. none of the high level guys you see dominating anyone for an extended period of time are "purists" anymore.

    the best wrestler / striker combo out there still has to have extensive knowledge of bjj in order to neutralize it..
     
  10. awid

    awid Red Belt

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    cus they cause injuries and its kind of hard to go light on takedowns. u cant pussy a double and expect to get it. we do them in the weeks before a competition, but not regularly
     
  11. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

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    Possible troll thread but ill bite.

    BJJ has not lost respect. Wrestling has not lost repect and Muay Thai has not lost respect.

    BJJ is a specialty art, the specialize in ground just like boxing specializes in punching.

    If you want to fight Mixed Martial Arts you had either better be SO good at your chosen style that you can win anyway OR you had better be learning everything.

    Wrestlers do well for 2 reasons, A) they have learned submissions and/or submission defense or B) they control the range of the fight, by that I mean they stay standing against submission aces and they take down strikers.
    Even that is not enough though because if that wrestler fights a heavy handed submission guy, then what?

    MIXED martial arts. Pure fighters dont cut it anymore.
     
  12. crackbaby420**

    crackbaby420** Yellow Belt

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    Didnt mean to come off that way but i am bringing this up because in my own game i always felt my standup was weak and wished it was a little better. We all know Akiyama gassed, no way in hell is Chris Leben gonna sub a fresh Akiyama.

    In my own training, I feel if i am going against someone better than me, id rather be on top instead of being smashed on the bottom.

    We all know there are many counters to strikes in BJJ's repertoire, which include neutralizing the strike so you can clinch followed by a throw, which are under utilized in MMA. Galvao was shooting on a d1 wrestler without even setting anything up, it was embarrassing to me since i hype up anyone jiu jitsu to casual mma fan friends before fights.
     
  13. crackbaby420**

    crackbaby420** Yellow Belt

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    Not gonna take these troll comments personal cuz my question is legit and not meant to get a reaction for my own entertainment.

    You might take the whole respect thing wrong but what I meant was how now people see wrestling as the dominant art as opposed to BJJ and fights like thales vs silva and demian vs silva (yes they all knew bjj but demian and thales clearly represented grapplers while anderson represented striking)
     
  14. dazed863

    dazed863 Blue Belt

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    i blame a lot of this on UFC......

    i think they play up some of the rivalry between BJJ and wrestling for ratings. which in turn keyboard warriors like to come on online forums, hide behind their monitors and voice there idiotic opinions even though they haven't EVER stepped on a mat or stepped in a ring themselves.

    for instance take matt hughes and his last fight. they had a clip of the dude bashing bjj in one of his prefight interviews. if he really felt that way about bjj he wouldn't have spent so much time training under jeremy horn...
     
  15. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    The problem is people like you that think they can watch the UFC and start passing judgment on the current standard of BJJ.
     
  16. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    BJJ has not lost respect, if anything MMA has gained respect, it means that if you are not training for MMA, you are not going to succeed at MMA, and even though there is some transitioning, in the end being a good at BJJ doesn't means you are automatically going to be good at MMA.
     
  17. crackbaby420**

    crackbaby420** Yellow Belt

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    people like me? what u mean by people like me? :icon_chee

    all im sayin is rarely do i see throws utilized by bjj fighters in mma, even though we train throws and i gotta watch fights like galvao vs woodley where the bjj guy gets his ass whooped
     
  18. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    I stand corrected.

    You just want to talk about mma.

    There are heaps of BJJ guys that have decent td and throws in MMA.

    What more can I say? Haters gonna hate.
     
  19. crackbaby420**

    crackbaby420** Yellow Belt

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    not hatin, i love bjj, i train bjj, but just so many weak performances by bjj in mma recently, with the most recent being nick vs noons and galvao vs woodley, diaz was mostly on his knees trying to hold onto an ankle, ill say he did not look to good in that win and i expect better from bjj fighters
     
  20. stile0

    stile0 Purple Belt

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    there aren't any repercussions for pulling guard in competition. if it was made a penalty then it might encourage more people to practice takedowns.
     

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