Why is Sherdog okay with tapping to submissions but not tapping to strikes?

[grimballer]

The argument has always been (well, as long as I've been alive, and that's many decades) that giving up due to head blows is different because its not harmful, that you're okay if you can get back on your feet. Starting to black out from being taken into the boards (no one wore helmets back then); skate it off. If you fall over because you're blacking out, get back on your feet, because your opponents might score. Same for boxing, for football - being hit in the head was like stubbing your toe, you keep going.

Its pretty straightforward. There are two conditions that make tapping acceptable:

1) You're taking damage.
2) You've no reasonable way of mitigating it.

If you're not taking damage then you keep going. Being held down for instance is not a reason to tap.

If you can reasonably be expected to escape then you keep going.


So now lets look at someone losing consciousness from head strikes. They've clearly got no reasonable way of escaping, anymore than they do with a choke or lock. Anyone who's started to black out (my experience was from a car accident) will tell you that, its a very different feeling than being rocked. Being rocked means you're dizzy, but know what's going out. Losing consciousness from strikes is like passing out from chokes (I speak from experience on this, having had both). Dizziness doesn't even come into it, your brain is shutting down and you've no idea what's going on, barely have use of your limbs, don't know where you are - well, you get the idea.

So if tapping to strikes is not allowed, its not because of 2), so it must be 1), that people think you're not taking damage, at least compared to chokes and locks. And that was exactly what we were taught in hockey, rugby, football and similar contact sports back in the day - that being hit in the head might hurt, but its was just pain, there were no long term consequences. Turns out that was wrong.

You’re mixing too many things at the same time here

It was known for a long time that getting hit in the head isn’t a good thing

Term “punch drunk” been around for a long time n it refers to boxers who have been hit too many times n they had slurred speech or showed signs of Dementia

There’s also Ali n his Parkinson disease was believed to be linked to his boxing career

Everybody’s pretty much aware that blows to the head are not good n can cause neurological problems later on

As fighter you gotta accept these things n be aware that fighting might lead to brain/head problems later on

If you’re concerned with these issues then fighting career isn’t the best path

Tapping to strikes to avoid couple of extra punches isn’t gonna change much in a long fighting career where a person is gonna get hit to the head over 1000 times

It’s like going to the Vegas n losing 10000$ In casinos but then getting upset for spending 100$ in a strip joint n acting like the reason you have 10100$ less in your bank account is the strippers

Also like somebody else already mentioned if your hands are free to tap, you can do something else instead. Try to improve your position, block, tie the guy up ...

In a sub you’re stuck. You can move try to escape, but when the sub is deep you know it n it’s either you’re gonna go to sleep or get your limb broken. The ref will not step in after you’re out/have broken limb

With strikes the ref will step in before you go completely out.

Another thing with tapping is you’re not protecting yourself. You give your opponent an opening to hit you without you protecting yourself.

You’re better off covering up n protecting yourself n let the ref step in then tapping n letting your opponent hit you straight in the face with no protection

 

[cevo]

If you can tap to strikes, you can be trying to defend the strikes.

So why tap to a choke then? According to your own logic: If you can tap, you can defend the choke. And chokes are almost completely safe compared to head strikes.

 

[EGarrett]

So why tap to a choke then? According to your own logic: If you can tap, you can defend the choke. And chokes are almost completely safe compared to head strikes.

No because when a choke is under your chin, you can't do much with your arm. Whereas in most cases when you're being struck (not all cases of course), you can use that arm to cover your face. The defense you can mount with the arm is far more effective.

 

[cevo]

No because when a choke is under your chin, you can't do much with your arm. Whereas in most cases when you're being struck (not all cases of course), you can use that arm to cover your face. The defense you can mount with the arm is far more effective.

What if you're so rocked that you know that there's no recovering? I wouldn't have cared if Aldo tapped out against Holloway (first fight) or RDA against Alvarez. They were so out of it for a relatively long time there was no chance for a comeback.

 

[Bigz132]

Tapping when there is no way out is only barely acceptable. Tapping to strikes is a bitch move

 

[IDGETKTFO]

Its the Ref's job to stop the fight when a fighter has had enough strikes. Its the fighters job to tap when they are in a sub they can't defend. Tapping to strikes is pussy shit.

 

[EGarrett]

What if you're so rocked that you know that there's no recovering? I wouldn't have cared if Aldo tapped out against Holloway (first fight) or RDA against Alvarez. They were so out of it for a relatively long time there was no chance for a comeback.

If you're that rocked then you won't have the presence of mind to tap.

Note, I'm not saying that fighters should never tap to strikes, it's their own health on the line and not mine, I'm just saying that this is why I think fans perceive it as weak.

 

[sadowolf]

I find it funny that you'd jump straight to CTE for a concussion, the equivalent would be me jumping straight to paralysis or maiming for a submission. How many cases of CTE have been caused by one late ground and pound stoppage? Using hyperbole isn't really adding anything to your argument. Yes we've seen people escape crucifixes which is why I said after you've tried to escape but can't and are just sustaining damage that you have no way of preventing. I also said if the strikes had caused a break (an orbital bone would be included here) and you can't intelligently defend yourself you should tap. I think the posters responding to me know EXACTLY the situations I'm talking about but are simply being pedantic now. If a fight started and fighter A gave fighter B a solid cross that didn't drop him or break anything and fighter B tapped out because "he couldn't see himself winning from there" would you be okay with it? This is the hurt business and these guys train to see who the baddest dude on the planet at that weight is, part of that is having a fighter's mentality, I just don't see tapping in the situations I mentioned as having a fighter's mentality.

Then I guess we need some clarity here then. Mentioning CTE is more a risk proposition; there still isn't a ton known about the direct causation of CTE in any given situation. It hasn't been narrowed down to "situation A where the fighter sustained GnP caused their CTE," but the risk is there and it's known. Therefore it's not unreasonable for someone to have that in mind whenever their in a situation where they're sustaining a lot of head trauma. That's very different from someone thinking "I've been in a lot of armbars lately; better tap or I'll become paralyzed from it." The threat of CTE is a little more present, partly because of the uncertainty that doesn't really come to play when talking limb submissions. I know the types of situations you mentioned in terms of tapping to strikes, and I simply said they should need to already have happened in order for you to know you're not improving the situation. You don't need to wait for an orbital break. Obviously you should have least tried to better your position though.

Your example of a fighter taking a cross and tapping is just an example of you using hyperbole as well. That is EXACTLY the type of situation I mentioned in my very first response to you that makes it NOT okay to tap to strikes. A fighter thinking they couldn't win from in that situation would come off like a quitter simply because they're not in a situation of grave danger and they have many clear options. Tapping at the first sign of danger was never something I claimed to endorse, and in fact I clearly condemned it from the jump. I'm talking about situations where you're taking a sustained beating, you're badly rocked and discombobulated, maybe you've been dropped, your opponent is in a dominant position, you've tried to improve your own, and you're pretty much just getting pounded on. Situations where easily the most likely result of you not tapping is just that you'll continue getting pounded on. I'm not talking Bob Sapp or Eddy Bengtsson shit here. If you take a hard shot and feel the need to tap out then you should maybe consider another line of work. But if you're getting pounded on, your brain can't make sense of what to do, and more shots keep coming, I don't see anything wrong with tapping to fight another day. In your posts you make it sound like unless there's a serious injury or you can't move at all you shouldn't be tapping. All I'm saying is that if you're taking a lot of damage in a situation where there's a minuscule likelihood of you turning things around then sure I'll think highly of you as a fighter for not giving up and trying to be that small percentage who escapes; that's a show of amazing heart and you're a warrior. But to me tapping in that situation, where escape is possible but not likely, doesn't automatically make you a bitch. If you're tapping in a situation that many have worked through, then yeah you might be a bitch. If you don't agree with that then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[RogerB08]

Because with strikes as long as you are not knocked out cold you still have a chance to move out of the way or block the next strike and retreat or counter attack. Tapping to strikes means you are panicked and giving up. But once a submission is locked in tight there isn't much you can do to get out. Tapping to a choke or armbar .5 seconds after it is applied is giving up just like tapping to strikes. First attempt a counter and when that fails then tap.

A verbal tap to strikes while in crucifix position is different IMO.

Not necessarily. You don’t need to be asleep to not be able to protect yourself.

 

[RogerB08]

For me personally, I just think it has no real life correlation. You can't be getting your ass handed to you in a street fight and be like "yup, I've had enough" and tap so they'll stop hitting you. A submission is different because it can lead to disfigurement and no one wants that. In the end though it's the fighters choice, it's their body, their career and therefore ultimately their decision.

Not sure where you’re going with this. If you catch someone in a submission hold in a street fight, are you going to stop cranking because they say no more?

 

[SuperNerd]

Sherdoggers are all fake, wannabe tough guy, smart asses.

 

[Shaddows]

tapping to strikes is the most embarrassing way to lose a fight.

the other fighter basically owns your soul for the remainder of your career.

/thread

I agree.
Like how GSP tapped to Serra, right?

 

[SuperHoss]

Internet Toughness, FTW!

It is like asking a kindergarten kid what he wants to eat for lunch every day and then complaining because he has cavities for eating candy every day for lunch.

 

[Shaddows]

It's all context.

Shogun seemingly tapped to strikes and was given very, very little minimal flack. Cause everybody loves Shogun (sounds like an E reality series about him and his family after he retires).

Joanna seemingly tapped to strikes and she was the butt of many, many jokes because people didn't like her pre-fight trash talk to Rose.

The same action but one was not worth mentioning and the other was a sign of cowardice and weakness. You can't have it both ways.

Tapping to strikes is not a problem at all in my opinion. To me it just means live to fight another day- who knows better than you when you can't come back from the beating you're taking and you are sustaining too much damage. Sometimes it's the more practical and responsible thing to no when to call it.

The thing is, the people who take absolute beatings and don't quit are rightly praised for their toughness so it ends up sort of backfiring because if someone who is getting wrecked and stays in there is praised, it almost implies that somebody in a similar situation who opts out of the fight should be criticized or derided.

And that's simply not the case.

IMO this.
I don't mind.
Matter of fact, I would have preferred JDS tapping to Cain than the beating that took his soul... he was never the same after that.

But you gotta admire guys like Nog, who got famous for getting beaten throughout the fight until he succeeds in getting that submission... I recall the term "Getting the Victory from the jaws of defeat" more than once when he fought...one of the reasons he was so adored...
And let us ont forget he didn't tap to Mir (who broke his arm), and when asked if he would have tapped if he could go back in time, he answered "I would continue trying to get out (and not tap)"....
Some fighters are just tough!!!

 

[jeremyemilio]

Because with strikes as long as you are not knocked out cold you still have a chance to move out of the way or block the next strike and retreat or counter attack. Tapping to strikes means you are panicked and giving up. But once a submission is locked in tight there isn't much you can do to get out. Tapping to a choke or armbar .5 seconds after it is applied is giving up just like tapping to strikes. First attempt a counter and when that fails then tap.

A verbal tap to strikes while in crucifix position is different IMO.

For me personally, I just think it has no real life correlation. You can't be getting your ass handed to you in a street fight and be like "yup, I've had enough" and tap so they'll stop hitting you. A submission is different because it can lead to disfigurement and no one wants that. In the end though it's the fighters choice, it's their body, their career and therefore ultimately their decision.

Two things get missed in this line of reasoning:

1. A choke doesn't cause "disfigurement" or any real damage, and a lot of chokes aren't even particularly uncomfortable. Teen kids choke each other out for shits and giggles.

2. There have been a shit load (and I mean a SHIT LOAD) of guys who have intentionally put themselves in position to be caught in a choke for the sole purposes of tapping out. Sometimes to save themselves from strikes... but sometimes just because they're exhausted and want to call it a night, pick up a check, and head home.

 

[aRtFuL]

Either one is okay. Only people who never fought in the ring will believe otherwise.

It already takes plenty of heart for someone to go into a ring in the first place.

 

[chaos_36]

Then I guess we need some clarity here then. Mentioning CTE is more a risk proposition; there still isn't a ton known about the direct causation of CTE in any given situation. It hasn't been narrowed down to "situation A where the fighter sustained GnP caused their CTE," but the risk is there and it's known. Therefore it's not unreasonable for someone to have that in mind whenever their in a situation where they're sustaining a lot of head trauma. That's very different from someone thinking "I've been in a lot of armbars lately; better tap or I'll become paralyzed from it." The threat of CTE is a little more present, partly because of the uncertainty that doesn't really come to play when talking limb submissions. I know the types of situations you mentioned in terms of tapping to strikes, and I simply said they should need to already have happened in order for you to know you're not improving the situation. You don't need to wait for an orbital break. Obviously you should have least tried to better your position though.

Your example of a fighter taking a cross and tapping is just an example of you using hyperbole as well. That is EXACTLY the type of situation I mentioned in my very first response to you that makes it NOT okay to tap to strikes. A fighter thinking they couldn't win from in that situation would come off like a quitter simply because they're not in a situation of grave danger and they have many clear options. Tapping at the first sign of danger was never something I claimed to endorse, and in fact I clearly condemned it from the jump. I'm talking about situations where you're taking a sustained beating, you're badly rocked and discombobulated, maybe you've been dropped, your opponent is in a dominant position, you've tried to improve your own, and you're pretty much just getting pounded on. Situations where easily the most likely result of you not tapping is just that you'll continue getting pounded on. I'm not talking Bob Sapp or Eddy Bengtsson shit here. If you take a hard shot and feel the need to tap out then you should maybe consider another line of work. But if you're getting pounded on, your brain can't make sense of what to do, and more shots keep coming, I don't see anything wrong with tapping to fight another day. In your posts you make it sound like unless there's a serious injury or you can't move at all you shouldn't be tapping. All I'm saying is that if you're taking a lot of damage in a situation where there's a minuscule likelihood of you turning things around then sure I'll think highly of you as a fighter for not giving up and trying to be that small percentage who escapes; that's a show of amazing heart and you're a warrior. But to me tapping in that situation, where escape is possible but not likely, doesn't automatically make you a bitch. If you're tapping in a situation that many have worked through, then yeah you might be a bitch. If you don't agree with that then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

What would you have done if you were refereeing say Kongo/Barry? Or Edgar/Maynard 2? Or Diaz/Daley? All of these are instances where the rocked fighter looked completely out to it. Almost every time Barry hit Kongo he dropped him, same with Maynard and Edgar, Diaz and Daley was different but Daley hits like a truck and Nick was all but out of there. If they had all tapped to strikes we would have been robbed of some of the most epic comebacks in MMA history. There are instances where I agree with you though, Cyborg vs Finney being the primary example. That was terrible matchmaking and the ref or the corner should have stopped it after round 1 because it was clear that Finney was simply outclassed. I would have had no problem with a tap to strikes there, even though it doesn't fit my criteria of broken limbs etc.

 

[chaos_36]

Not sure where you’re going with this. If you catch someone in a submission hold in a street fight, are you going to stop cranking because they say no more?

It's obvious my post there needs a little clarification because you're the second person who's misconstrued what I was trying to say. I was saying you CAN'T tap in a street fight, if you're in a submission then you're going to get your shit broken unless shown some mercy which is unlikely, in MMA we have a rule to prevent that. Tapping to strikes in a street fight will likely get you killed, which is why I said I see no real life correlation. In MMA we have rules, regulations, referees and corner-men that should theoretically prevent any situation where a fighter has to tap from strikes. GSP/Serra for example would have been stopped a couple of seconds later but for whatever reason GSP preempted the referee's call. The amount of damage sustained in those few seconds would have been minimal at best but like I also said earlier, it's their body, their career and their decision. I'm just saying how I feel about it.

 

[chaos_36]

Two things get missed in this line of reasoning:

1. A choke doesn't cause "disfigurement" or any real damage, and a lot of chokes aren't even particularly uncomfortable. Teen kids choke each other out for shits and giggles.

2. There have been a shit load (and I mean a SHIT LOAD) of guys who have intentionally put themselves in position to be caught in a choke for the sole purposes of tapping out. Sometimes to save themselves from strikes... but sometimes just because they're exhausted and want to call it a night, pick up a check, and head home.

1. It's more about sportsmanship. Being caught in a choke and not tapping is kind of arrogant, it shows your opponent clearly got the better of you but you refused to acknowledge it. Doesn't cause disfigurement though you're right, I was talking about joint locks.

2. I agree. That's up there with tapping to strikes too. Conor and Rumble come to mind with that example.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Blacked out and unconscious are not synonymous and you shouldn't be impressed I was just a young, angry man with no outlet for my frustrations. I explained why I think tapping to submissions isn't problematic for me, the argument is becoming circular in nature. I don't think the ref worries about fighters passing out from chokes because they're fairly harmless. As far as joint locks are concerned an acknowledgement you've "been caught" by tapping is far more sporting than letting your limb get broken because of a sense of bravado or whatever. We also agree on the refs not knowing when your limb is going to break, hence why it's far easier for you to tap yourself and take the decision out of their hands.

Fair enough, a quick Google shows you're correct, I've been using blacked out incorrectly. What I should have said is that when you're going unconscious you have no more chance of escaping strikes than when you're being choked out.

We agree on why the refs aren't so worried about fighters passing out with chokes, and on why its problematic to wait for the ref to decide when a limb is going to break (though for youth judo the refs will make both calls if they feel its warranted even if the youth doesn't tap).

We disagree on whether the ref is any better at telling if a fighter is going unconscious from strikes than they are at telling if a limb is breaking or a fighter is going under - I think its basically almost impossible to tell in all cases, which means I see no difference in tapping to strikes than to chokes or locks ... waiting for the ref is putting far too much trust in them.