Why is Sherdog okay with tapping to submissions but not tapping to strikes?

[kflo]

It's not as risk free as not getting up in boxing but fighters still do it as a way to avoid further punishment and end the fight. Its impossible to compare. The only thing to say is that fighters look down on tapping to strikes. Rightly or wrongly.

have you seen fighters look down on shogun for tapping against jbj?

 

[wilKO]

have you seen fighters look down on shogun for tapping against jbj?

Not much. GSP? Hell yeah. Rose too. Funny BJ quit on his stool and gets way less flack than GSP for tapping.

 

[kflo]

Cause it’s a submission

It’s suppose to make you submit/quit

the sub is locked in, you’re stuck n there’s no way of escaping

So it’s either tap, snap or nap

Tapping to strikes means you just don’t like getting hit in the face n you don’t show the will to overcome adversity (very important characteristic for a fighter)

Now I know there’s gonna be idiots coming here like zombies with: cte... cte...

Well you’re getting into a profession where getting hit to the head happens a lot

If you’re concerned with cte, maybe you’re in wrong profession n should reconsider your career choice

wtf is wrong with you???? you think fighters should just accept that they should ultimately get cte because they signed up to fight? you have mental problems, and you obviously have no idea what it means to fight for a living.

again, shogun fuckin rua tapped to strikes.

 

[IIIIIIII]

Cause it’s a submission

It’s suppose to make you submit/quit

the sub is locked in, you’re stuck n there’s no way of escaping

So it’s either tap, snap or nap

Tapping to strikes means you just don’t like getting hit in the face n you don’t show the will to overcome adversity (very important characteristic for a fighter)

Now I know there’s gonna be idiots coming here like zombies with: cte... cte...

Well you’re getting into a profession where getting hit to the head happens a lot

If you’re concerned with cte, maybe you’re in wrong profession n should reconsider your career choice

Exactly.

 

[da best eva]

All relative to persons fan base. In reality tapping to massive head blows should be more acceptable than tapping to a choke.


Probably mainly basement dwellers that have an issue with it.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Yes and fighters know this beforehand. Tapping to a joint lock is sensible because if you're locked into a submission and they break your limb your out of action for 8-12 months, if you're in a position to tap to strikes you're also in a situation where you could improve your position or worse case scenario where the ref will save you. I just think it's a bit of a front runner mentality if you're willing to kick someone's ass but will tap out before they have a chance to kick your ass.

You have a non-zero chance of improving your position when you're blacking out to strikes - but mainly that depends upon your opponent screwing up badly. The same is true for not tapping with a submission locked in - you can improve your position if your opponent screws up. There are judoka who never tap to chokes and armbars in the Olympics for that reason - the Olympics come once every four years, its worth risking a broken limb on the chance your opponent screws up. Nog took the same approach with Mir.

Strikes or submissions, the way out when you're all but finished is to hope your opponent screws up.

But the consequences if your opponent doesn't screw up are far worse with strikes than with locks, let alone jokes. The one you're out of action for as you say 8-12 months. The other you have concussion symptoms (read up on them wrt NFL players if you're curious) that last the rest of your life. Its not even close.

 

[grimballer]

wtf is wrong with you???? you think fighters should just accept that they should ultimately get cte because they signed up to fight? you have mental problems, and you obviously have no idea what it means to fight for a living.

again, shogun fuckin rua tapped to strikes.

No you have mental problems n you’re a hypocrite

You like a sport where contestants are supposed to beat each other up, but then act like a snowflake n talk about cte

If you’re so concern about cte you should stop watching mma or any other contact sport n petition for it to be banned

Now reality check for you snowflake

All these guys can potentially suffer from cte later on in life. That’s the profession they chose.

They constantly get hit in the head (fights/practice). Tapping to strikes n avoiding 2 or 3 extra punches to the head won’t make a significant overall difference

So yeah you can try to rationalize tapping to strikes all you want with cte, but the reality is fighters are suppose to be mentally tough n overcome physical pain in order to win. Tapping to strikes shows lack of both

 

[kflo]

No you have mental problems n you’re a hypocrite

You like a sport where contestants are supposed to beat each other up, but then act like a snowflake n talk about cte

If you’re so concern about cte you should stop watching mma or any other contact sport n petition for it to be banned

Now reality check for you snowflake

All these guys can potentially suffer from cte later on in life. That’s the profession they chose.

They constantly get hit in the head (fights/practice). Tapping to strikes n avoiding 2 or 3 extra punches to the head won’t make a significant overall difference

So yeah you can try to rationalize tapping to strikes all you want with cte, but the reality is fighters are suppose to be mentally tough n overcome physical pain in order to win. Tapping to strikes shows lack of both

again, genius. shogun tapped to strikes. he has also shown he is mentally tough and can overcome physical pain to win. is it your opinion he's not tough?

 

[grimballer]

again, genius. shogun tapped to strikes. he has also shown he is mentally tough and can overcome physical pain to win. is it your opinion he's not tough?

Well he got outclassed n had nothing for a superior fighter

He got tired of getting beat up So he quit

Not his brightest moment in the sport that’s for sure

 

[kflo]

Well he got outclassed n had nothing for a superior fighter

He got tired of getting beat up So he quit

Not his brightest moment in the sport that’s for sure

Is he not tough?

Lol at getting tired of getting beat up and quitting.

It wasn’t his best performance. Tapping had nothing to do with it.

 

[grimballer]

Is he not tough?

Lol at getting tired of getting beat up and quitting.

It wasn’t his best performance. Tapping had nothing to do with it.

Here’s another guy who got tired of getting his nose punched in n just dropped on the floor

The difference is he never tapped

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

If you’re concerned with cte, maybe you’re in wrong profession n should reconsider your career choice

Same is true for a broken limb - lots of sports out there with no risk of that. If you have to tap to avoid that, using your argument you're in the wrong sport.

Worse, there are no consequences at all, short term or long term, from being choked out. Kids in judo are choked out, rest for five minutes, and are back into practice. People used to line up to be choked out by judo Gene Lebell.

If you don't like being choked out or have a broken arm, maybe MMA is wrong for you. The advice works at least as well as for CTE's - and in fact arguably works better, since the consequences of being choked out or having a broken arm is much lower.

People are basically saying its okay to tap to chihuahua or retriever , but you shouldn't tap to a pitbull - presumably because their extensive medical research has shown that chihuahua's and retrievers are more dangerous than pitbulls. Its just the weirdest thing; how anyone today can think being choked out or having a broken arm is worse than concussions is beyond me.

 

[legkicktko]

I think its a matter of several things, one of them being pattern.

We see guys hurt routinely by strikes and get placed in awful positions, yet some of them manage to recover and win the fight anyway. We've seen enough guys come back to win to where we register it as a reasonable possibility, which is why we get mad at early stoppages.

Can fighters come back from a locked sub? Sure, but that is way more rare.

 

[grimballer]

Same is true for a broken limb - lots of sports out there with no risk of that. If you have to tap to avoid that, using your argument you're in the wrong sport.

Worse, there are no consequences at all, short term or long term, from being choked out. Kids in judo are choked out, rest for five minutes, and are back into practice. People used to line up to be choked out by judo Gene Lebell.

If you don't like being choked out or have a broken arm, maybe MMA is wrong for you. The advice works at least as well as for CTE's - and in fact arguably works better, since the consequences of being choked out or having a broken arm is much lower.

People are basically saying its okay to tap to chihuahua or retriever , but you shouldn't tap to a pitbull - presumably because their extensive medical research has shown that chihuahua's and retrievers are more dangerous than pitbulls. Its just the weirdest thing; how anyone today can think being choked out or having a broken arm is worse than concussions is beyond me.

You’re trying way too hard kid

1st when you get into mma you expect to get hit in the head. If you’re not ready for that n have concern simply don’t choose it as a career path

Now sure you also get choked out n have your arm/leg cranked, but you understand that when you get to that point (getting choked/limb broken) the fight is pretty much over n there’s no point of continuing

On the other hand you gonna get punch during a fight. What are we gonna expect next? Guys tapping after 1st strike to the head outta concern for cte?

Also cte is a cumulative damage n there’s no wAy of knowing if/when it’s gonna happen

Some brawlers will get punched repeatedly in the head n will have no symptoms, while others (non brawlers) will barely get hit n will have some

There’s no wAy of knowing when too much is too much

So again tapping n avoid 2 or 3 extra punches is nothing compared to a long career of getting punched in the head during fights/sparring

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

You’re trying way too hard kid

1st when you get into mma you expect to get hit in the head. If you’re not ready for that n have concern simply don’t choose it as a career path

Now sure you also get choked out n have your arm/leg cranked, but you understand that when you get to that point (getting choked/limb broken) the fight is pretty much over n there’s no point of continuing

On the other hand you gonna get punch during a fight. What are we gonna expect next? Guys tapping after 1st strike to the head outta concern for cte?

Also cte is a cumulative damage n there’s no wAy of knowing if/when it’s gonna happen

Some brawlers will get punched repeatedly in the head n will have no symptoms, while others (non brawlers) will barely get hit n will have some

There’s no wAy of knowing when too much is too much

So again tapping n avoid 2 or 3 extra punches is nothing compared to a long career of getting punched in the head during fights/sparring

You know you can be choked out many times without any affects, long term or short term at all? Your logic applies even more strongly to chokes than to strikes.

The only reason there's an understanding that it's okay to tap to chokes and locks is because at one point people decided it was okay. In the early days of judo it was considered shameful to tap to chokes or arm bars (or even knee-locks, which were part of judo until 1925). Somewhere along the way they decided that as nice as it was to be tough, the damage wasn't worth it, so tapping for locks became okay. And then chokes.

With strikes it was thought until recently that there was no damage. Not just in boxing and MMA. When I was a kid, in school league hockey a player would be knocked out from a body check against the boards, and be back on the ice on the next shift, because if you could get up you were obviously completely okay again. Everyone thought like you did, because no one took concussions seriously. Just like no one took broken arms or being choked out seriously in old time judo. Strikes are in the same situation locks and chokes were in early judo - you were expected to put up with them, because being choked out or having a broken arm was just part of life, and tough guys put up with them.

Except now it looks like concussions are more dangerous than broken limbs or being choked out and revived.(yeah, I know you don't believe it, but don't take my word for it, ask any doctor). But we're going in circles; we don't agree on what is the most dangerous, so we're never going to convince each other. I'll leave you the last word, but if you get a second, do a search on concussions; you're going to find you're wrong about the dangers in it as opposed to chokes and locks.

 

[ufcfan4]

For only the second time in nearly a decade I'm going to disagree with you here. You're one of the most logical posters on the board and you don't usually miss the intangibles, but I think there's a serious intangible difference between Shogun and Joanna.

You mention the difference but outside the context of the Shogun fight - sustained beatings. Shogun had taken a sustained beating since the bell rung to start the fight. Round after round a superior fighter beat on him like it was a sparring session with a rubber dummy. So, when he FINALLY tapped (and he did catch SOME flack for it) he was simply accepting what he, Jon, the crowd, the refs, the judges, Dana and the fans already knew. He had run headlong into a superior athlete/fighter.

Joanna on the other hand got dropped and hit a few times in the first.

One of them had taken a sustained mauling and the other lost her equilibrium and didn't like getting hit.

Now, don't get me wrong, I know the way I'm choosing to word this paints Joanna negatively, but I don't see it that way. I just see the difference. I'm cool with both cases, personally. There IS a difference, IMO, though.

Haha thanks, man. Always enjoy reading your posts. I fully acknowledge that I painted in too broad strokes there. Sure there was a difference in Shogun being humble and likable and Joanna being the antagonist to Rose but that was not the only difference. You're absolutely right that taking a sustained beating and then tapping is different than tapping when hurt in the earlygoing.

The one thing I will note though is that either fighter was getting stopped regardless because the refs intervened seemingly independent of the rather subtle hand conceding that Shogun and Joanna did. Thus, we can't really frame it like Joanna tapped to stop the beatdown when she should have kept fighting (you're not framing it that way I'm just generally saying that someone who is critical because they felt she took the easy way out has no real argument) because she was done for in the eyes of the ref anyway.

 

[agibmxmma]

Tap to submissions and there’s no shame but tapping to strikes and you’re on Sherdog’s shit list.

Because the avg sherdogger.. as in 99%, don't train, have never fought before and don't grasp the complexities of the various martial arts.

 

[CDN420]

Its the law of the land! The people have spoken. Now get back in line, and don't you ever....

 

[Paralakz]

Haha thanks, man. Always enjoy reading your posts. I fully acknowledge that I painted in too broad strokes there. Sure there was a difference in Shogun being humble and likable and Joanna being the antagonist to Rose but that was not the only difference. You're absolutely right that taking a sustained beating and then tapping is different than tapping when hurt in the earlygoing.

The one thing I will note though is that either fighter was getting stopped regardless because the refs intervened seemingly independent of the rather subtle hand conceding that Shogun and Joanna did. Thus, we can't really frame it like Joanna tapped to stop the beatdown when she should have kept fighting (you're not framing it that way I'm just generally saying that someone who is critical because they felt she took the easy way out has no real argument) because she was done for in the eyes of the ref anyway.

Thanks man, same to you, obviously (It should be obvious when I can identify that I've only disagreed with you once before).

I think a lot of people are glossing over the fact that both fights were also stopped within literal seconds of the taps. With Shogun, it was used to cushion the blow with regard to tapping in the first place. It was seen as less of a transgression by his stans since the fight was stopped right after.

With Joanna, everybody that was stanning her jumped ship immediately and tossed her all the way up under the second set of wheels on the Namajunas hype train, yet the same exact thing transpired. She goes down, takes some shots, gives a meek little tap JUST as the ref stops the fight and she's somehow weak? I hate it. It's stupid.


Edit: I just re-read this sentence back to myself: "With Joanna, everybody that was stanning her jumped ship immediately and tossed her all the way up under the second set of wheels on the Namajunas hype train, yet the same exact thing transpired."

It made me chuckle because we went from boat to bus to train over the course of one sentence.

 

[Dreaming Dead]

People tap to strikes when they're losing consciousness. Same for chokes. The only case in which people tap to pain is for locks, when they feel the ligaments and tendons stretching. And even in that case they're tapping not because of pain, but because of the risk of being out of action for half a year.

If pain was enough to make someone tap, then all those pressure holds from traditional martial arts (which are legal in MMA) would be used all the time. Everyone would be doing aikido and kung-fu. No one at the UFC level in MMA cares about pain. Going unconscious from a choke or strikes, or broken limbs is another matter.

I don't train, but if I recall correctly, the calf crusher is considered a "pain move", but at least two fighters tapped out when caught in it.