Why is Sherdog okay with tapping to submissions but not tapping to strikes?

[sprucelees]

How about throwing in the towel mid round, or not coming out for the next round? Is that worse or better than tapping?

 

[sadowolf]

What would you have done if you were refereeing say Kongo/Barry? Or Edgar/Maynard 2? Or Diaz/Daley? All of these are instances where the rocked fighter looked completely out to it. Almost every time Barry hit Kongo he dropped him, same with Maynard and Edgar, Diaz and Daley was different but Daley hits like a truck and Nick was all but out of there. If they had all tapped to strikes we would have been robbed of some of the most epic comebacks in MMA history. There are instances where I agree with you though, Cyborg vs Finney being the primary example. That was terrible matchmaking and the ref or the corner should have stopped it after round 1 because it was clear that Finney was simply outclassed. I would have had no problem with a tap to strikes there, even though it doesn't fit my criteria of broken limbs etc.

Not sure why my reffing would matter too much haha, but I'd say in those fights everyone on the receiving end of the beatings never just took it lying down and demonstrated that they still had more to give. There was a point where I may have stopped the Kongo/Barry but that's pretty much it. That was the only one of the three you listed where I was watching it and thought someone was "done" when they weren't. But none of them were exactly trapped in their situations. They all stayed moving and refused to stay down, and never looked to be in a position where I would think they'd tap to strikes because they were able to create some distance. I think a key factor in all those fights (to my recollection) was that none of those withstanding the beatings really got trapped in positions where they couldn't quickly move and escape. It would've been odd to see any of the three tap because they were getting tagged but never really wilted and always responded with immediacy. Hey, they're all obviously tough as nails and that made for some epic moments; I never tried to imply that everyone should tap to strikes when they're in trouble. I'm referring to situations where someone takes a lot of damage, is in a situation where when you combine the position with their rattled brain there isn't too much recourse for escape, and their body won't shut off. I'm not saying even in that situation that someone absolutely needs to tap, just that I don't think lesser of them if they do. I'm thinking something similar to the Lesnar/Mir fight; Mir was trapped up against the cage in half guard with Brock just blasting him, and I wouldn't have thought any less of Mir if at a point he tapped (might have been shocked though, as I don't see Mir as the type). The Finney fight most definitely should've been stopped. At a point it became clear she could do nothing but aim to survive. At this point I don't expect most corners to stop fights, but Kim Winslow was horrible in there letting her take that beating. If Jan wanted out in a particularly bad situation I wouldn't blame her at all.

But it seems we're at least on a more similar page with this even if we don't agree fully; I think we both thought the other was more extreme in their stance than either of us actually is.

 

[TheRassler]

This is the dumbest argument I've ever seen on this subforum which has the dumbest posters on sherdog forums which overall has the dumbest community on the internet.

You seriously think a runningback is in more danger than these guys? Wow those guys really earned so much by "going out on their shields" rather then tapping to strikes right?

Your idol by the way tapped to strikes so i guess he's a total pussy right?

There were 281 concussions reported this season in the nfl. How many in the ufc this year??? And that’s just concussions alone, not including all of the other freak injuries that happen in the nfl.

If you don’t think the nfl is more dangerous, you obviously know nothing about sports.

 

[Prince Nephilim]

Tapping to strikes just has that negative connotation that if you had the strength and your wits to tap then you had the power to do something other than give up.

We all tap out in bjj class, matter of fact, it's encouraged. So Tapping to a submission is alittle ingrained and dare I say even natural under those circumstances

 

[djason1988]

100% depends on the situation. If your already concussed and getting the life beat out of you, tap. If you're "stuck" in a position (crucifix, Maia backpack, etc) tap. But you have to be clearly losing badly before a tap is accepted.

 

[Towerworld]

There were 281 concussions reported this season in the nfl. How many in the ufc this year??? And that’s just concussions alone, not including all of the other freak injuries that happen in the nfl.

If you don’t think the nfl is more dangerous, you obviously know nothing about sports.

IT seems that you're the one who doesn't understand either sport:
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...in-almost-a-third-of-professional-bouts-study
One third of mma fights end up with someone having serious head trauma. Not to mention that there are 3x as many NFL players than there are UFC fighters and they also play 16 Times per year while UFC fighters fight at most 4 times per year. I'll say it again you're a total idiot and my iq points dwindle every single time I'm forced to read your retardation.

 

[djason1988]

There were 281 concussions reported this season in the nfl. How many in the ufc this year??? And that’s just concussions alone, not including all of the other freak injuries that happen in the nfl.

If you don’t think the nfl is more dangerous, you obviously know nothing about sports.

The NFL had almost 1700 players, the UFC a third of that. And NFL players have games every week for months. A fighter might fight 2-3 times a year. 4-5 is exceptionally active. And even in victory, a lot of these guys walk out with minor concussions.

 

[TheRassler]

IT seems that you're the one who doesn't understand either sport:
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...in-almost-a-third-of-professional-bouts-study
One third of mma fights end up with someone having serious head trauma. Not to mention that there are 3x as many NFL players than there are UFC fighters and they also play 16 Times per year while UFC fighters fight at most 4 times per year. I'll say it again you're a total idiot and my iq points dwindle every single time I'm forced to read your retardation.

You’re gonna compare someone who fights 2-3 times a year (if that) to come someone who plays a dangerous sport every week for 20-24 weeks?? Not counting practice. And these guys have been playing football since they were little kids.

It’s official, you’re a retard.

 

[Towerworld]

You’re gonna compare someone who fights 2-3 times a year (if that) to come someone who plays a dangerous sport every week for 20-24 weeks?? Not counting practice. And these guys have been playing football since they were little kids.

It’s official, you’re a retard.

Im talking about an individual fight u idiot when you're grounded and taking shots with the ref not stopping it idiot.

 

[truthisfreedom]

Tap to submissions and there’s no shame but tapping to strikes and you’re on Sherdog’s shit list.

The only reason why this thread was made is because OP is a GSP fan.

If he wasn't, he'd see how silly it looks when a professional fighter taps to strikes.

 

[grimballer]

It was thought that it took a large number of head strikes (as in years of accumulated strikes) to cause damage. Which is why it was thought okay even for kids to be knocked out several times in a single hockey game - the understanding was that it'd take years for the KO's to add up to a problem. Even protective parents would tell their kid to get back on their feet and be on the ice the next shift, because that was accepted medical knowledge.

Its the same theory that says getting hit four or five more times when you're already going unconscious from brain trauma isn't a problem - the additive factor of individual strikes was thought to be minimal. Unfortunately we now know better, and in fact taking a hit when you're already concussed (ie going unconscious) has a significant multiplier affect on the severity of damage.

I agree that a fighter has to be aware and accept this. I just don't see how that's any different than saying a fighter has to be aware and accept being choked out or having a broken limb from not tapping - if the idea is you never give up, then its just as reasonable to tell a fighter to refuse to tap given the risk a broken limb or being choked out as it is to tell them to risk increased brain damage.

You're stuck in sub, but there's always a non-zero chance of getting out. Your opponent might screw up; its why in old time judo you never tapped, not for chokes, not for arm bars. It was considered unmanly to tap rather than accept a broken arm or torn knee (knee bars were part of judo til 1925). My first judo coach was from that era of judo, and he'd frown at any of his students to tapped rather than accepting a torn limb, and for the same reason that you frown at a fighter who taps because of strikes. He'd say there's always a chance, bushido meant never giving up. In retrospect I think he's wrong, and I think you're wrong for the same reason ... counting on your opponent to screw up, or for the referee to see that your arm is bending unnaturally or that you're going unconscious is relying on another person to save you ... its telling you you're a victim who needs a ref to keep you from serious harm.

Have you ever gone unconscious from a head blow (or blows), and gone unconscious from a choke. I have from both (putting a head through a windshield is not something I'd recommend if you want to try it - lots of bleeding along with the concussion). You really have no more control of your body with the head blow than you do the strike.

Sometimes I get the feeling you're talking about fighters tapping while completely conscious, just because they don't like getting hit, the equivalent of someone tapping because someone has a very loose choke or armbar on. Panic tapping (you see it in judo with beginners, and I'm sure in amateur MMA). But that's not what's happening at the UFC level. Guys tap to armbars because their arms are bending, guys tap to chokes because they're going out, guys tap to strikes because they're going out.

And when you're losing consciousness you have no more ability to protect yourself from a strike than you do from a choke - the tap is a reflex at that point, the hand does it by itself (again, speaking from plenty of experience with chokes, mine and others).

You’re desperately trying to equate the two, but they’re simply not the same. It’s comparing apples to oranges.

When you’re in s submission your opponent got a hold on you, that’s why it’s called a submission hold. You can try to escape, but when you feel it’s deep n basically you don’t have to tools to escape, you tap. Fans give the fighter the benefit of the doubt n assume he tapped just before getting the limb broken/going to sleep. Sometimes fighters will get criticized for tapping too quick as the sub didn’t seem deep, but for the most part they are given the benefit of the doubt as the consequence for not tapping is instantaneous n the ref will not step in to prevent the fighter from going to sleep/getting limb broken. Also majority of fighters will tap in same position.

With strikes it’s different. The opponent doesn’t have a hold on you, n every time he strikes it gives you opportunity to move n improve your position.

The consequences for not tapping are also not instantaneous. You may or may not go to sleep n long term damage may or may not happen. (Keep in mind we’re talking about a sport where your opponent can ko you stiff n then deliver few more blows while you’re unconscious).

The ref is also supposed to step in when you’re no longer defending yourself.

N finally most guys will not tap in those positions n will try to find a way to survive instead.

 

[ThunderStruck]

There were 281 concussions reported this season in the nfl. How many in the ufc this year??? And that’s just concussions alone, not including all of the other freak injuries that happen in the nfl.

If you don’t think the nfl is more dangerous, you obviously know nothing about sports.

Most knock downs are actually a concussions.
All ko's are concussions.

 

[ThunderStruck]

The only reason why this thread was made is because OP is a GSP fan.

If he wasn't, he'd see how silly it looks when a professional fighter taps to strikes.

Spoken like a true keyboard warrior. Pretty sure you're one big pussy in real life.

 

[JohnMandick]

I am more impressed with fighters who tap then improve and avenge the losses than tough fighters who never tap but keep getting destroyed by top opponents.

Exactly.

Nothing wrong with tapping when you are bested.

 

[TheRassler]

The only reason why this thread was made is because OP is a GSP fan.

If he wasn't, he'd see how silly it looks when a professional fighter taps to strikes.

Correct.

The only fans defending tap to strikes are butthurt GSP fans.

 

[TheRassler]

Im talking about an individual fight u idiot when you're grounded and taking shots with the ref not stopping it idiot.

An individual fight lasts 15 to 25 minutes max, many of them don’t even last 5 minutes, and many of them barely even fight a couple times a year. A single football game lasts about 3 hours no matter the outcome, for about 6 months straight out of the year, you idiot. Did you fail math in middle school or something?

 

[Towerworld]

An individual fight lasts 15 to 25 minutes max, many of them don’t even last 5 minutes, and many of them barely even fight a couple times a year. A single football game lasts about 3 hours no matter the outcome, for about 6 months straight out of the year, you idiot. Did you fail math in middle school or something?

I was talking about a circumstance where the grounded fighter was taking a severe beating. That is an extremely dangerous position to be in for head trauma more so than any sport.
Generally MMA is safe for what it is but when you have the few idiot refs like mazzagatti and mario who don't protect the fighters you get situations like the gif i posted in my previous post. You think you wouldn't tap if you were on the recieving end of that beating?


But still derail and Talk about the sports as a whole you're still very wrong there are far more KO's or concussions for the number of fighters not to mention other injuries like broken orbital ect and several deaths that have occured.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

You’re desperately trying to equate the two, but they’re simply not the same. It’s comparing apples to oranges.

When you’re in s submission your opponent got a hold on you, that’s why it’s called a submission hold. You can try to escape, but when you feel it’s deep n basically you don’t have to tools to escape, you tap. Fans give the fighter the benefit of the doubt n assume he tapped just before getting the limb broken/going to sleep. Sometimes fighters will get criticized for tapping too quick as the sub didn’t seem deep, but for the most part they are given the benefit of the doubt as the consequence for not tapping is instantaneous n the ref will not step in to prevent the fighter from going to sleep/getting limb broken. Also majority of fighters will tap in same position.

With strikes it’s different. The opponent doesn’t have a hold on you, n every time he strikes it gives you opportunity to move n improve your position.

The consequences for not tapping are also not instantaneous. You may or may not go to sleep n long term damage may or may not happen. (Keep in mind we’re talking about a sport where your opponent can ko you stiff n then deliver few more blows while you’re unconscious).

The ref is also supposed to step in when you’re no longer defending yourself.

N finally most guys will not tap in those positions n will try to find a way to survive instead.

Yes, but the difference is the apples (chokes and locks) have much less serious consequences than the oranges (concussions).

You seem to think that you have the tools to escape when you're going unconscious. As anyone who has been there can tell you, you don't. Going unconscious from a head blow (or a choke) isn't like watching a TV screen fade away, you lose both your perception (including your sense of where your limbs are and what they're doing) and your awareness of what you're doing and where you are.

You're talking about people who tap against strikes while still fully aware of their body and surroundings. Yes, in that case you can respond, just as you can still respond when someone has a choke or lock that isn't sunk in yet - and tapping in that situation is as wrong as tapping to a non-sunk in submission.

But tapping to strikes while still completely aware and conscious is as rare as people tapping to chokes before starting to lose consciousness. When you're rocked, when you're dizzy, you're still aware, still able to respond. But that's not when people tap to strikes. Fighters who've tapped to strikes (Shogun, GSP) have been rocked without tapping a number of times. If it were about cowardice they'd be tapping every time they were rocked, or even every time they were hit. Is that what you see happening?

When they tap to strikes is when they start to lose consciousness - when they're not aware of where they are, or often even who they are (its actually a weird feeling). You've no more ability to survive that without a major screwup on your opponent's part than you have the ability to survive a sunk in lock or choke without a major screwup on your opponent's part.

If refs were good, then there'd never be a need to tap to strikes, and then you'd be right that tapping was cowardly - the ref would stop it before you went unconscious. The same is true for chokes and locks btw - in youth judo good refs will stop the contest when they see someone going out, or when they see their arm being bent unnaturally. But refs aren't consistently good, and in fact many are simply lousy. Waiting for the ref to stop it when you're losing consciousness to strikes is as silly as waiting for the ref to stop it when you're losing consciousness to chokes or having your ligaments/tendon's stretched in a lock - take it from someone who's referred a lot of judo matches, seen a lot of chokes and locks; the ref can't feel your arm or your loss of consciousness. And they're if anything worse at distinguishing when someone is losing consciousness from strikes.

You seem to think losing consciousness from strikes is like watching a move with a fading screen, where you're completely aware of what's going on but just seeing less. That's simply not the case, your whole body shuts down, and you're left with small reflexes.