Why is NAGA so afraid of wrestlers?

I agree that blue belt had stiffer requirements in the past, though I don't think the difference is that much - blue isn't the new purple for instance. And even back then, it wasn't true that BJJ blue belt meant you could beat any judo black belt, Olympic wrestler etc. For instance, Gracie Mag (not a judo fan base) wrote that Roger Gracie and Kenzo Nakamura (96 Olympic gold medalist in judo) went at it hard on the ground for ten minutes, where Roger had positional dominance, but neither was able to sub the other. I doubt many BJJ blue belts would have been able to do what Roger Gracie couldn't do.

And though you're right a blue belt doesn't take away strength, speed etc, most blue belts (or judo black belts, high school wrestlers etc) don't have the same physical attributes as Mike Tyson, who was a one in a million athlete.

And most BJJ blue belts are good on the ground but bad at takedowns for the same reason most judo black belts are good at takedowns and bad on the ground - they don't spend much time on it. If you spend 20% of your time on takedowns, you're not going to get good enough at it to take down a very strong, very athletic guy unless you're the 1 in a thousand athlete who's also very strong, very athletic on that scale.

Judo people are bad for thinking spending a bit of time on the ground makes them submission machines, but its just as incorrect for BJJ people to think a bit of time practicing throws makes them takedown machines. And most BJJ'ers spend as little time practicing throws and takedowns as judo people spend on groundwork. There are exceptions, but as a general rule, if you want to be good at both groundwork and takedowns, you have to mix BJJ with either wrestling or judo (or sambo).

I think Royce Gracie wouldh have beaten Tyson if he didn't get caught coming in (and Rickson I'm sure would have beaten him), but they competed in judo and sambo tournaments and practiced throwing a lot. That's not true of most BJJ blue belts, today or before.

bro, I was just explaining why people thought that blue belts were going to kick judo and wrestlers asses in subgrappling...

Regarding tyson, If a blue belt (bad ass) with similar physical atributes (size and weight) gets tyson down, im pretty sure he will sub him, it doesnt matter how atheltic and explosive tyson is/was, without grappling training, that explosiveness athleticism and strength means squad, now, give him 3 months of training and were are talking about a completely different thing...

I also think anyone that does not train tdd will get taken down pretty easily, specially if we are talking about people of the same size, no matter how explosive and athletic you are, if Fighter A is looking to blow his opponents head with strikes, fighter b is looking to get him down, chances are, fighter b will get the take down, unless fighter A does not get reckless and has some actually tdd training...
 
I would have a serious talking to if any of my wrestlers tried to go novice. Any wrestler with at least 1 season has no business in novice. The amount of mat time a guy gets with 1 year of wrestling is equal to about the same hours of 2-3 years of BJJ. Practice is everyday, 2 hours a day.

The wrestling midset should be to push yourself against the highest level of competition, not hide in lower divisions to get wins.

For 3-4 months. So, it is about 72 practices (at 3 months, 6 days per week). If you train 3x per week in bjj, it is obviously more, 156 practices. Maybe they are an hour each, many have 2 hours (my gym always has 2 hour classes). You can say that the practices are more intense because it is all competition focused, and therefore worth more, but a person who wrestled one season in HS is pretty much a novice IMO. It is less than 6 months. Now someone that is a good wrestler in HS, no, they should be at least in beginner (if the wrestling is remote) probably intermediate (if more recent).

But to say 1 season of wrestling = 3 years of bjj, I like wrestling too (and was a wrestler myself), but no fuckin way that is even close to reality. If you meant 1 full year (as in 3 or 4 HS seasons - or a season, a dedicated off-season and then another season) yeah, I can agree with that. You get better faster in wrestling because of the intensity and the competition... but then, the sport is basically bjj, so you're probably going to lose to someone with equivalent bjj training time unless you have at least 6 months of actual submission grappling training too.
 
For 3-4 months. So, it is about 72 practices (at 3 months, 6 days per week). If you train 3x per week in bjj, it is obviously more, 156 practices. Maybe they are an hour each, many have 2 hours (my gym always has 2 hour classes). You can say that the practices are more intense because it is all competition focused, and therefore worth more, but a person who wrestled one season in HS is pretty much a novice IMO. It is less than 6 months. Now someone that is a good wrestler in HS, no, they should be at least in beginner (if the wrestling is remote) probably intermediate (if more recent).

But to say 1 season of wrestling = 3 years of bjj, I like wrestling too (and was a wrestler myself), but no fuckin way that is even close to reality. If you meant 1 full year (as in 3 or 4 HS seasons - or a season, a dedicated off-season and then another season) yeah, I can agree with that. You get better faster in wrestling because of the intensity and the competition... but then, the sport is basically bjj, so you're probably going to lose to someone with equivalent bjj training time unless you have at least 6 months of actual submission grappling training too.

Wrestlers dont just train for 3 months and then just sit around the other 9 months. Most guys are doing offseason practices and tournaments too. A guy who takes wrestling seriously will get more mat time than a weekend warrior bjj guy going to 2 classes a week.

In wrestling, you are taught from day one not to run from competition. In fact, you are taught to run towards the toughest guys you can find. It is no secret, that is how you get better. Its not like a wrestler will go to NAGAS with zero bjj. If they are at a bjj tournament, they have trained at least a little bit. Would I expect one of my wrestler teammates with little bjj experience to enter Adult Expert against brown and blacks? No. But I would be pissed if they signed up for Novice. It is not fair to the competition and it is actually doing themself a disservice if they ever want to get good. Wrestlers shouldnt be scared to lose if it means they get better.
 
Wrestlers dont just train for 3 months and then just sit around the other 9 months. Most guys are doing offseason practices and tournaments too. A guy who takes wrestling seriously will get more mat time than a weekend warrior bjj guy going to 2 classes a week.

In wrestling, you are taught from day one not to run from competition. In fact, you are taught to run towards the toughest guys you can find. It is no secret, that is how you get better. Its not like a wrestler will go to NAGAS with zero bjj. If they are at a bjj tournament, they have trained at least a little bit. Would I expect one of my wrestler teammates with little bjj experience to enter Adult Expert against brown and blacks? No. But I would be pissed if they signed up for Novice. It is not fair to the competition and it is actually doing themself a disservice if they ever want to get good. Wrestlers shouldnt be scared to lose if it means they get better.


Good wrestlers in elite programs train like that. Wrestlers have a bad habit of comparing the best wrestlers from elite wrestling programs to whatever hobby bjj guy they want to compare it to. There are 1000s of HS wrestling programs that are terrible and the kids are complete sad sacks that are made of mush.

I understand what you are saying, but I had the good fortune of wrestling at an elite HS program, and then later coaching at a HS where we couldn't fill out a lineup and lost all matches but one. There are programs like this everywhere.

The point is that the comparison you are making is between some wrestlers and some bjj practinioners. Hour for hour, the training is more intense with wrestlers on average, but your point about "wrestlers are X" is pretty much universal to all sports at higher levels.
 
If you have a blue belt you must compete in intermediate - If you've only wrestled one season, you can compete at beginner (with other white belts). You don't have to sub someone to win, you can just take them down and avoid the sub and then you win.

You can't complain about how your treated unfairly because your minimal wrestling experience puts you in a higher bracket and then boast about the hardcore 30 minute Jane Fonda video then drink from the garden hose workout you had to endure during your intense wrestling training.
 
Seriosuly. I remember when i went to one of their events the owner of naga was talking and stuff in the beginning. He was saying how wrestlers cannot enter beginner or novice divisions and that his son got smashed by soem wrestler kids. I then read on their website that if you wrestled even half of a season 20 years ago you must enter the intermediate division or higher or something like that. I find it quite ridiculous that half a season (2 months maybe?) of training in wrestling is better than 2 years of BJJ. they are basically kind of admitting wrestlers are better than BJJ'ers. When I competed at the event they were thoroughly questioning me when my wrestling experience came up during the pre competition little interview thing. They seem like they fear wrestlers. And its not even wrestling, its submission grappling/BJJ

NAGA is a grappling tournament. Wrestling is a form of grappling, as are BJJ, Judo, Sambo, catch wrestling, military combatives, etc. It's intended to be cumulative grappling experience.

Wrestlers have consistently sandbagged their experience in order to win novice and beginner divisions at NAGA. They've also become notorious for playing various strategies to secure the takedown and run out the clock to win on points. That's why wrestling is singled out for enforcement.

As others have said, the amount of mat time in a few months of scholastic wrestling is more than a novice training twice a week for 6 months. These wrestlers have likely developed a base, a better sense of feel, have committed some takedowns & takedown defense to muscle memory....and are typically coming in with their own BJJ experience as well.

It's totally justified. In fact, I wish they were more throrough in questioning people about other forms of grappling experience. For example, I've watched guys with military combatives experience just decimate novice and beginner divisions. While these programs aren't as robust as BJJ schools, someone with a background in combatives can certainly develop more quickly when they later take up BJJ.
 
If a person wrestled for 4yrs in high school, but are 15+yrs removed from their wrestling, with 3 months of BJJ, do they go to the higher division, or are they a novice? I see this as being a typical situation, and I'm not sure how much of that wrestling is actually retained. Or is it just the grappling knowledge in general that puts them in the higher division?

It depends on the person. If they are wrecking all the white belts in training and competetive with newer blues, they should be competing at intermediate not novice.

If they have solid base but get stomped badly by all the blue belts, compete at novice.
 
It depends on the person. If they are wrecking all the white belts in training and competetive with newer blues, they should be competing at intermediate not novice.

If they have solid base but get stomped badly by all the blue belts, compete at novice.

This isn't a judgment call. It's written in black & white on the entry form. The reason the wrestler sandbagging issue continues is because there's always someone else that think the "no wrestlers" policy for novice somehow doesn't apply to them.
 
88 posts later, it's clear the thread title should have been: Why are wrestlers so afraid of NAGA?
 
NAGA is a GRAPPLING tournament and thus not exclusively for BJJ'ers. It follows, then, that with a few years of wrestling one should not be doing the novice division. There are a lot of wrestlers who like to hold down their under-skilled opponents, though, just so they can take home a medal.
 
I thought I read somewhere that Helio was awarding blue belts aftrer completing X amount of classes and learning the SD curriculium. Something like 6 months.
 
For the record, it appeared to me that most wrestlers went expert last weekend at NAGA. Although I wasnt paying too much attention to the novice division, I didnt see any wrestlers beating up anyone.
 
For the record, it appeared to me that most wrestlers went expert last weekend at NAGA. Although I wasnt paying too much attention to the novice division, I didnt see any wrestlers beating up anyone.

I thought I recognized that tattoo on your arm.
 
This thread reminds me of a guy I trained with who wrestled for 2 years in high school including making it to state, then after high school went to a generic MMA/submission grappling place and did 1 year there of learning basic subs.

Then he went to a BJJ tournament no-gi division and reasoned "Well Ive never done jujitsu before so Ill just enter the novice division" and he cut weight so he could compete at like 3 weight classes below his natural weight so he was the biggest guy there. So he had 2 years of wrestling + 1 year submission experience going against beginners plus he cut weight. He proceeded to wreck everyone there to get a medal. Then he comes back to the gym talking zhit about how jujitsu guys suck and so forth.

So the next year comes around and guys at the gym convince him to try the intermediate division since he dominated the novice, he goes in acting all cocky and confident and doesnt even make third place.
 
I thought I read somewhere that Helio was awarding blue belts aftrer completing X amount of classes and learning the SD curriculium. Something like 6 months.

"In jiu-jitsu, 40 classes with me are sufficient, two times a week, to subconsciously assimilate everything.. "

http://www.global-training-report.com/helio2.htm





40 privates classes with Helio (twice per week).

But it was not for sport BJJ competition.
 
This thread reminds me of a guy I trained with who wrestled for 2 years in high school including making it to state, then after high school went to a generic MMA/submission grappling place and did 1 year there of learning basic subs.

Then he went to a BJJ tournament no-gi division and reasoned "Well Ive never done jujitsu before so Ill just enter the novice division" and he cut weight so he could compete at like 3 weight classes below his natural weight so he was the biggest guy there. So he had 2 years of wrestling + 1 year submission experience going against beginners plus he cut weight. He proceeded to wreck everyone there to get a medal. Then he comes back to the gym talking zhit about how jujitsu guys suck and so forth.

So the next year comes around and guys at the gym convince him to try the intermediate division since he dominated the novice, he goes in acting all cocky and confident and doesnt even make third place.

Perfect example of the bizarre logic that gets a dude with 3 years of grappling experience to believe it's appropriate to compete with guys who have trained for less than 6 months.
 
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