Why is NAGA so afraid of wrestlers?

[Dirty Holt]

Kind of, but not really. They do allow all kinds of leg locks and neck cranks so they are allowing a lot of catch wrestling moves, but the scoring system and rules are based around bjj rather than wrestling or Judo or Catch (which is extremely rare so it doesn't matter as much). It is pretty much no gi bjj when you are competing no gi. It's not a "mix of grappling". If it was, they would award 1 or 2 points for holding someone's back/shoulders to the mat for like 30 seconds and give 1 point for escapes. They could also award 5 points for big throws which would allow wrestlers and judoka to easily keep up with the bjj guys since they aren't as good as submissions. And maybe 3 points for a takedown that puts the top man straight in side control or better. These are just some rules that i think would make it more "well rounded" and would allow wrestlers and judoka to compete competitively without spending much time learning bjj. And as for judoka I'm talking the standard Judo guy, not a rare type that does tons of newaza, a guy that spends 20% of the time on groundwork and even less on submissions.

I neck cranked the shit out of some guy today at NAGAs.

 

[nodferatu]

I neck cranked the shit out of some guy today at NAGAs.

Haha, we're you in Dallas today?

My teammate got beat by a pro fighter in the intermediate division. Sandbag a little?

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

Alessio did intermediate at NAGA not too long ago, a shit storm broke out on the UG about it.

 

[NateTx4112]

Gilbert burns won no GI today. Rico bastos was there as well.

We had a blue belt beat a 10th planet blue belt in no GI expert as well. Funny stuff.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Wrestling is grappling experience. You can't enter novice with it because to wrestle for 2 months you surely trained for 6 months. Novice is for under six months. If you only have six months you can do beginner but not if you had 2 years. Remember this is a grappling tournament not a bjj tournament.

 

[Calibur]

Alessio did intermediate at NAGA not too long ago, a shit storm broke out on the UG about it.

Man, shitsorms LIVE on the UG.

Alessio does intermediate since he had no grappling rank. They whine.

A nogi black belt enters a gi class wearing a black belt, they whine.

An Eddie Bravo black belt puts on a gi and wheres the blue belt he was awarded and proceeds to tap out a black belt in the gi. They whine.

You can't make them happy.....unless you buy a green name.

 

[Thrawn33]

If it were someoneone coming a year or two out of HS (4 years varsity wrestler) with little BJJ/sub training, then yes I'd say No Beginner

Now someone in their 30s with less than a year of BJJ/Sub who wrestled in HS 12 years ago...I think beginner might be ok?

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Kind of, but not really. They do allow all kinds of leg locks and neck cranks so they are allowing a lot of catch wrestling moves, but the scoring system and rules are based around bjj rather than wrestling or Judo or Catch (which is extremely rare so it doesn't matter as much). It is pretty much no gi bjj when you are competing no gi.

Two things. One: I said their idea was to pit grappling styles against each other, thus weighing experience equally. I didn't say the scoring was neutral.

Two: It's really not no gi BJJ scoring, because that exists, and NAGA is very much not that. It still focuses a lot on the guard position, but you get points for reversals that aren't scored in BJJ, you get scored for achieving positions rather than for guard passing (unlike BJJ where you have to pass the guard to side control to get points for it), they credit the mount and rear mount with fewer points than in BJJ, you don't need the hooks in for back mount points as in BJJ, and they score actual points for submission attempts. That, plus the broader array of submissions allowed, combined with the liberal rules on attire (i.e. you can wear wrestling shoes), NAGA is the least BJJ-favorable rule set of any major sub grappling tournament (save for sub-only tournaments or obscure catch tournaments).

 

[Calibur]

Two: It's really not no gi BJJ scoring, because that exists, and NAGA is very much not that. It still focuses a lot on the guard position, but you get points for reversals that aren't scored in BJJ, you get scored for achieving positions rather than for guard passing (unlike BJJ where you have to pass the guard to side control to get points for it), they credit the mount and rear mount with fewer points than in BJJ, you don't need the hooks in for back mount points as in BJJ, and they score actual points for submission attempts. That, plus the broader array of submissions allowed, combined with the liberal rules on attire (i.e. you can wear wrestling shoes), NAGA is the least BJJ-favorable rule set of any major sub grappling tournament (save for sub-only tournaments or obscure catch tournaments).

Really?

I've never been to a NAGA event before. Those rules sound awesome.

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

Submission attempts is pretty blurred overall though, totally depends on the ref's knowledge of the situation.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Really?

I've never been to a NAGA event before. Those rules sound awesome.

You still get points for passing, sweeping, taking the back, achieving mount, etc. And guard pulling is not penalized. I'm just saying that it's a lot less like BJJ than other tournaments. Still mostly BJJ-based guys that enter.

 

[nodferatu]

Two things. One: I said their idea was to pit grappling styles against each other, thus weighing experience equally. I didn't say the scoring was neutral.

Two: It's really not no gi BJJ scoring, because that exists, and NAGA is very much not that. It still focuses a lot on the guard position, but you get points for reversals that aren't scored in BJJ, you get scored for achieving positions rather than for guard passing (unlike BJJ where you have to pass the guard to side control to get points for it), they credit the mount and rear mount with fewer points than in BJJ, you don't need the hooks in for back mount points as in BJJ, and they score actual points for submission attempts. That, plus the broader array of submissions allowed, combined with the liberal rules on attire (i.e. you can wear wrestling shoes), NAGA is the least BJJ-favorable rule set of any major sub grappling tournament (save for sub-only tournaments or obscure catch tournaments).

You do need hooks in for back control to get points. They changed it I guess.
They also changed the rule where in nogi, if you wear gi pants your opponents can't grab them now whereas before they could grab them. Found that out in mid pass.

 

[jclaudevandamme]

they are basically kind of admitting wrestlers are better than BJJ'ers. When I competed at the event they were thoroughly questioning me when my wrestling experience came up during the pre competition little interview thing. They seem like they fear wrestlers. And its not even wrestling, its submission grappling/BJJ

They are afraid of some dumb kid being takedown-ed and falling in a wrong way because he is too dumb to workout to have strong muscles and to learn proper break falls. Do not be mad against it, it is just that BJJ went to serious martial art to [censored] sportive art where nearly everyone of the new kids, following the new weakness of the art, do not think that standing up is important at all.

Then again, you are joining a sporting event, so you should not complain about the rules, only about the [censored] of the people that attend.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

You do need hooks in for back control to get points. They changed it I guess.
They also changed the rule where in nogi, if you wear gi pants your opponents can't grab them now whereas before they could grab them. Found that out in mid pass.

Interesting, thanks for the info. I haven't done NAGA in over a year, guess I'll need to sit in on the rules meeting next time around.

 

[SUPERGRAPPLER]

This thread is a lot dumber than I thought it would be.

NAGA isn't afraid of wrestlers. Wrestlers can compete, they just have to compete with other people who have grappling experience.

Maybe it wouldn't have come to this if all these winstrol soaked beasts hadn't entered the lowest belt divisions just so they could guillotine an accountant who was told by his instructor that grappling tourneys were totally safe and he'd be matched up with other guys who had learned what the guard was 6 months prior.

NAGA isn't afraid of wrestlers. Just too many people claimed their wrestling experience wasn't relevant when it clearly was.

So true! I've seen guys that wrestled from elementary school-college wearing a white belt in jiujitsu smash on blues and purples, and even give a few browns fits on the mat.

 

[climax]

The last NAGA I did, penalized me for pulling guard. I also kind of like the rules but hate the "submission attempt" points. It was an attempt which obviously means it failed. It rewards a guy for failing to finish a submission (in many cases from what I saw, not even close) and penalizes a guy for getting out of one.

I get the idea, make competitors attack them more. I had a guy try and cross body guillotine me when I was on bottom in half guard. He grabbed my head on the far side and I proceeded to get an underhook and sweep him and get my head out and put him in side control. After that exchange we ended up being tied at that point... wtf? I saw a lot of guys get points for "submission attempts" that were ridiculous. I was actually behind because I lost an advantage for pulling guard.

 

[Sub Dude]

Lots of misinformation on the rules in this thread. I recommend looking at the actual rulebook. Heck, there are even videos explaining the rules if you don't wanna read:

http://nagafighter.com/index.php?module=rulepage

 

[georgejjr]

a decade ago, the blue belt requirmets I think were harder, wrestlers had no idea of subgrappling, and judo black belts still get sub by blue belts under bjj rules...

and tyson would get taped by most blue belts under bjj competitions, and even in a MMA situation, there are plenty bad ass blue belts who can tap him if they can take him to the ground, being tyson doesnt mean he can grapple, he sure as fuck can send that blue belt to the grave if he hits him with a cross or something though.

So you're saying judo black belts and wrestlers with no BJJ actually should be competing at novices?

And actually I doubt many BJJ blue belts (unless they've a wrestling background to build on) are going to tap Tyson in MMA - they're just not getting him to the ground. And actually, most recreational grapplers (of any style) are going to find that a world class athlete like Tyson is not something that a couple of years of grappling is going to give you the tools to handle. People always underestimate how important strength, speed, balance, conditioning and so on are.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

So you're saying judo black belts and wrestlers with no BJJ actually should be competing at novices?

And actually I doubt many BJJ blue belts (unless they've a wrestling background to build on) are going to tap Tyson in MMA - they're just not getting him to the ground. And actually, most recreational grapplers (of any style) are going to find that a world class athlete like Tyson is not something that a couple of years of grappling is going to give you the tools to handle. People always underestimate how important strength, speed, balance, conditioning and so on are.

nop, I was just making reference of why people thought like that about blue belts back in the days... Regarding tyson, I said blue bad asses, I see no reason why a blue belt couldn't take tyson down, unless punching power gives you incredible TDd, I dont see why not, if a bad ass blue belt, tysons size gets him to the ground, I see no reason why he couldnt tap him, you talk about people understamating strengh, speed, balance and conditioning, well, as far as I know, being a blue belt does not take away strenght, speed balance and conditioning of your body...

 

[georgejjr]

nop, I was just making reference of why people thought like that about blue belts back in the days... Regarding tyson, I said blue bad asses, I see no reason why a blue belt couldn't take tyson down, unless punching power gives you incredible TDd, I dont see why not, if a bad ass blue belt, tysons size gets him to the ground, I see no reason why he couldnt tap him, you talk about people understamating strengh, speed, balance and conditioning, well, as far as I know, being a blue belt does not take away strenght, speed balance and conditioning of your body...

I agree that blue belt had stiffer requirements in the past, though I don't think the difference is that much - blue isn't the new purple for instance. And even back then, it wasn't true that BJJ blue belt meant you could beat any judo black belt, Olympic wrestler etc. For instance, Gracie Mag (not a judo fan base) wrote that Roger Gracie and Kenzo Nakamura (96 Olympic gold medalist in judo) went at it hard on the ground for ten minutes, where Roger had positional dominance, but neither was able to sub the other. I doubt many BJJ blue belts would have been able to do what Roger Gracie couldn't do.

And though you're right a blue belt doesn't take away strength, speed etc, most blue belts (or judo black belts, high school wrestlers etc) don't have the same physical attributes as Mike Tyson, who was a one in a million athlete.

And most BJJ blue belts are good on the ground but bad at takedowns for the same reason most judo black belts are good at takedowns and bad on the ground - they don't spend much time on it. If you spend 20% of your time on takedowns, you're not going to get good enough at it to take down a very strong, very athletic guy unless you're the 1 in a thousand athlete who's also very strong, very athletic on that scale.

Judo people are bad for thinking spending a bit of time on the ground makes them submission machines, but its just as incorrect for BJJ people to think a bit of time practicing throws makes them takedown machines. And most BJJ'ers spend as little time practicing throws and takedowns as judo people spend on groundwork. There are exceptions, but as a general rule, if you want to be good at both groundwork and takedowns, you have to mix BJJ with either wrestling or judo (or sambo).

I think Royce Gracie wouldh have beaten Tyson if he didn't get caught coming in (and Rickson I'm sure would have beaten him), but they competed in judo and sambo tournaments and practiced throwing a lot. That's not true of most BJJ blue belts, today or before.