Why is boxing technique so bad in mma
- Thread starter rstringer
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bro i wont read all that shit ... wtf
you said "You think anyone would ever be able to Philly shell in MMA?" which is horseshit, cuz green made it work in MMA.
i always hear the same shit like "MMA stance" ... there are many mma fighters who stand like boxers, tkd guys, wrestlers etc.
MMA is full of bro science, myths and WWE fans lol
combat sports are dying.
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JDS' boxing has always been overrated, his speed and power compensated for the flaws in his technique, and now that his speed and power have fallen off he's getting exposed.
For one thing, there are a lot of boxing techniques, especially the defensive ones, that don't translate well into MMA. Boxing head movement is very opponent-dependent: Garbrandt would've gotten his head knocked off if Cruz had kicks in his repertoire. Using the gloves to absorb strikes doesn't work in MMA because of how small they are compared to boxing gloves. However, footwork is probably the most important defensive boxing technique MMA fighters should learn.
While I'm sure a lot of Sherdoggers won't take this post seriously because of who I'm about to cite, but Rose Namajunas might have some of the best boxing in MMA, because she doesn't just have good hands, but also great boxing footwork.
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O
I know far less about western kickboxing than I do about boxing or Muay Thai, but I’ve always felt it was off a lower standard. I think in the US there’s a genuine lack of understanding when it comes to what Muay Thai is and how it differs from Kickboxing. Personally, I wouldn’t say Schilling is a top level striker or even close. I would be wary of taking anything Rogan says without a large pinch of salt. I’ve heard him claim Anderson Silva has world class Muay Thai when there are dozens of 140lb Muay Thai fighters he couldn’t cope with. He was also one of the worst for hyping up Conor’s chances against Mayweather.
James Toney should really be disregarded. He was once a world class boxer but was so far removed from his prime and clearly was there to simply pick up a cheque, while being matched against an all time great MMA fighter in his debut. I’m trying to think about a comparable fighter in the UFC to that version of Toney, but there isn’t one - they would’ve all been cut long before.
Schlit was definitely world class kickboxer, imo his MMA record is actually demonstrative of the fact that the move can work. He took prime Fedor to a decision after all.
Holm was a good boxer but even by women’s boxer terms she lacked any power. Again, she stopped what was one time the women’s GOAT of MMA.
I don’t really see the reference to boxing being more aligned with black culture but then I’m from the UK. We produce great black boxers and great white boxers alike. Most gyms here probably have a mix very much along the lines of the general population.
You’re correct that the fundamentals of boxing don’t consider that you can be taken down. Neither do the fundamentals of Muay Thai or kickboxing. The fundamentals of wrestling don’t consider that your opponent can knock you out as you close the distance. The fundamentals of BJJ don’t consider that your opponent can punch/elbow you in the face while they’re in your guard. They ALL need to be adapted .
Boxing doesn’t just teach you to shell up defensively, and even that is a technique that has been adapted to MMA. How many fighters do you see take shots on their forearms as their primary form of defence to punches? Boxing defence doesn’t rely on covering up though. Things like distance control, anticipation of shots, rolling with punches, slipping punches, the ability to stay calm under fire (it amazes me when I see a high level UFC fighter look like they’ve never had a punch thrown at them) and counterpunching are all fundamental to boxing defence, and all very applicable to any MMA fighter. That’s before even looking at the offensive side of the sport.
Who Floyd would do is quite speculative. I would suggest his general toughness, insane will to win and work ethic, and comfort in the fight game would’ve resulted in him being very successful at whatever combat sport he had chosen. My point isn’t that he would be successful though, it’s that there has never been a striker as successful as him thats gone into MMA, or even anyone close to it. Whereas there is an abundance of very, very high level grapplers in MMA.
I know far less about western kickboxing than I do about boxing or Muay Thai, but I’ve always felt it was off a lower standard. I think in the US there’s a genuine lack of understanding when it comes to what Muay Thai is and how it differs from Kickboxing. Personally, I wouldn’t say Schilling is a top level striker or even close. I would be wary of taking anything Rogan says without a large pinch of salt. I’ve heard him claim Anderson Silva has world class Muay Thai when there are dozens of 140lb Muay Thai fighters he couldn’t cope with. He was also one of the worst for hyping up Conor’s chances against Mayweather.
James Toney should really be disregarded. He was once a world class boxer but was so far removed from his prime and clearly was there to simply pick up a cheque, while being matched against an all time great MMA fighter in his debut. I’m trying to think about a comparable fighter in the UFC to that version of Toney, but there isn’t one - they would’ve all been cut long before.
Schlit was definitely world class kickboxer, imo his MMA record is actually demonstrative of the fact that the move can work. He took prime Fedor to a decision after all.
Holm was a good boxer but even by women’s boxer terms she lacked any power. Again, she stopped what was one time the women’s GOAT of MMA.
I don’t really see the reference to boxing being more aligned with black culture but then I’m from the UK. We produce great black boxers and great white boxers alike. Most gyms here probably have a mix very much along the lines of the general population.
You’re correct that the fundamentals of boxing don’t consider that you can be taken down. Neither do the fundamentals of Muay Thai or kickboxing. The fundamentals of wrestling don’t consider that your opponent can knock you out as you close the distance. The fundamentals of BJJ don’t consider that your opponent can punch/elbow you in the face while they’re in your guard. They ALL need to be adapted .
Boxing doesn’t just teach you to shell up defensively, and even that is a technique that has been adapted to MMA. How many fighters do you see take shots on their forearms as their primary form of defence to punches? Boxing defence doesn’t rely on covering up though. Things like distance control, anticipation of shots, rolling with punches, slipping punches, the ability to stay calm under fire (it amazes me when I see a high level UFC fighter look like they’ve never had a punch thrown at them) and counterpunching are all fundamental to boxing defence, and all very applicable to any MMA fighter. That’s before even looking at the offensive side of the sport.
Who Floyd would do is quite speculative. I would suggest his general toughness, insane will to win and work ethic, and comfort in the fight game would’ve resulted in him being very successful at whatever combat sport he had chosen. My point isn’t that he would be successful though, it’s that there has never been a striker as successful as him thats gone into MMA, or even anyone close to it. Whereas there is an abundance of very, very high level grapplers in MMA.
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Bobby Green? I think I remember him fighting like once or twice. He's 24-10 and also had a wrestling background. Maybe I'm wrong particularly about that technique, the Philly shell defense...but I mean who's really done it and I think it poses problems when fighting in MMA unless you're just a superior wrestler/grappler or your opponent wants to stand. Idk.
I actually agree that MMA is full of bro science and myths, despite your obvious trolling elsewhere. But the thing is we've already pretty much proved that Wrestling / grappling > Boxing / striking in a vacuum. It's been proven since 1993 to 2020, 27 years of data.
It's basically impossible to impose "elite boxing" in the arena of MMA with clinching, takedowns, kicks/knees/elbows, fence work, etc. The sport of boxing was developed over it's existence for a different rule set, using bigger gloves, and in a ring. It's apples to oranges and a lot of boxing does not translate.
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ok bro ... it will probably take 200-300 years but i can wait.
Oh and Floyds style has nothing to do with the size of gloves.
And head movement absolutely does work!
How do you think MMA guys defend themselves if neither covering up or head movement work?
They both work. They both are traditional boxing fundamentals. They both just need slightly tailored to MMA.
I hate to cite him, but Conor is a great example of boxing working in MMA. The power to single shot KO someone, using a counter punch and an impeccable timing/distance control is pretty much the essence of the ‘Sweet Science’ that people are saying doesn’t work.
How do you think MMA guys defend themselves if neither covering up or head movement work?
They both work. They both are traditional boxing fundamentals. They both just need slightly tailored to MMA.
I hate to cite him, but Conor is a great example of boxing working in MMA. The power to single shot KO someone, using a counter punch and an impeccable timing/distance control is pretty much the essence of the ‘Sweet Science’ that people are saying doesn’t work.
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Just explaining why that technique isn't used in MMA, it only worked against Cruz because he doesn't use kicks.
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So yes like I said I wouldn't even count Toney. Schilt was okay, for the time it was more successful than most pure strikers but I was also young during the Pride days so I can't comment on how his grappling was. His record was padded by fighting many Japanese tomato cans though, imo.
Holm was a legit women's boxer, but let's admit that women's sports are harder to judge in terms of merit and skill. But she was legit a top women's boxer at a point, and while Rousey was the GOAT at a point...she was a one dimensional Judo specialist who fell in love with her hands - which were horrible despite stopping Bethe - and on top of this Holm KO'd her with a headkick, which is obviously not boxing.
The black culture comment was more....what I meant was that black kids growing up in "black culture" probably think doing BJJ is gay or wrestling is gay basically, as crude as that sounds it's true. And they gravitate towards boxing, along with Basketball and Football. How many poor urban area youth are playing soccer or hockey? None. It's sort of the same, it's a fiscal barrier / culture thing. It's also more of a US thing so perhaps you wouldn't understand it fully? Idk.
Sure I agree on most of the rest, all need to be adapted and more or less have. That's kind of my point really.
Boxing adapted to MMA isn't going to look like "good boxing". That's really my point, because a lot of the pretty sweet science stuff isn't going to work. You can't just stand in the pocket withiin clinching/takedown range and bob and weave, and duck under punches, and slip, and block some punches and return fire in a combo. It just doesn't really work that way imo.
With everything I've said...despite it, I still think boxing is one of the best forms of martial arts to adapt to real fighting / MMA. I think wrestling, boxing, and BJJ/grappling are clearly the three best by far. Then obviously you need to learn kicks/knee/elbow/clinch which muay thai, greco specifically, kickboxing, and traditional martial arts even...can cover. Now it's more streamlined and consolidated.
Laslty on Floyd, well yeah he's a top tier elite athlete who proved to be - arguably - one of the best boxers of all time. Obviously if he could even become a half decent grappler/wrestler he would likely be a very good bantamweight / featherweight at minimum. That's with a rudimentary kicking game too. But who knows.
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Head movement works, totally. What I meant is really the standing in the pocket and bobbing and weaving, dipping and ducking under punches like a Canelo Alvarez or whoever....would be trading in the pocket. It could work in MMA at times but that's basically when the two fighters are not going to attempt TDs against each other, and even then it's sort of rare...or different due to the small gloves.
Conor is a great boxer for MMA, I agree. But here's a big difference and he's the perfect example...
How does a Conor vs Floyd Mayweather hands only "boxing" match go in a UFC cage with small gloves on? Yeah there's a reason Floyd will never agree to that and it's not just because his hands are susceptible to breaking. It's because the mechanics and game change when you can't use giant surface area gloves to block.
Conor could crack him way more easily or slip punches in that would otherwise be partially or fully blocked, with mma gloves.
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Boxing stances and fundementals are entirely different from wrestling stances and fundementals, not to mention those aren't the only viable combat backgrounds and styles.
Both hands up leave you open to TD's, and both hands low leave you open to head strikes. It's like rock paper scissors almost with hand placement during exchanges.
Both hands up leave you open to TD's, and both hands low leave you open to head strikes. It's like rock paper scissors almost with hand placement during exchanges.
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Floyd sprawled Conors double leg against the ropes. Give Floyd some time and he would destroy your fav. MMA fighter.
Floyd is just a different beast.
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He won a lot of fights by punching, he's not an elite boxer
He gets hit way too much and has had shitty defence his whole career, whatever you are regurgitating when you call him an elite boxer, its bollocks
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ok bro ... it will probably take 200-300 years but i can wait.
Oh and Floyds style has nothing to do with the size of gloves.
Which is why Floyd refuses to fight Conor in small gloves despite the fact McGregor had virtually no boxing experience compared to an all-time great such as Mayweather?
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Which is why Floyd refuses to fight Conor in small gloves despite the fact McGregor had virtually no boxing experience compared to an all-time great such as Mayweather?
Floyds next exh. matches are worth 100-200 million dollars bro.
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Lmao, you were literally spamming McGregor threads the other day. 180 troll job, love it.
McGregor is not my favorite fighter. But I will say he's one of the most exciting fighters by far and one of the only ones I really care to watch in today's UFC. Jones and McGregor basically, Khabib too sure. No one else really moves the needle a ton. Adensaya is there now perhaps, but yeah you're just going to troll anyway so it's cool.
Floyd would break his petite little bones with one punch in the mma gloves, fact.
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Paulis hands are 5 million times more worse than Floyds and he fought granite head Artem. It took 2-3 rounds till his right or maybe both hands were broken.
Floyd will be fine.
scientific fact.
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They say styles make fights.
Joe Rogan's HGH/TRT enormous head would break both of Floyd's hands in the 1st round. Rogan by TKO, doctor stoppage.
Scientific law.
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